Hate Volume 7 Zipp/Schwalbe

Section head text.

Schwalbe Tires

@##=#<7,L>@##=#Today I’m feeling a little cycling world burnout, and I’m reviewing tires from a team sponsor, so it would be in my best interest to hold back on my feelings of general hate. The tires are great actually, but I cannot wait until the Tour starts so I can begin my daily venting of venom at the cycling world.

All of this talk of “suppleness” and “feel” of tires is absolute bunk. Two things with tires – do they slide out and how long do they last. Weight and colors are other minor considerations, but if someone starts talking about “road feel” that dreaded word “suppleness” I walk away. If you start writing sonnets about tires and “contact patches”, consider therapy.

I have Schwalbes on my training wheels (clinchers), Ksyriums (clinchers again) and the Zipps (tubulars), and I have never slid out with these tires in wet conditions or when cornering. That’s good. I have yet to replace the tires on any wheels yet this year, and I’ve had no flats – that’s good also. They’re durable and stick to the road well. This is what you want from tires.

@##=#<8,r>@##=#Where does this leave us?
The Stelvios I use run about $50 – about average these days for tires. I’ve never had a problem with these tires. I would suggest then to anyone.

Time for hate
I’m going to be brutal on the Tour guys this year: Gerolsteiner’s ice dancing outfits, Moreau’s perma-tenth, Vino’s head, Landis’ rural beginnings, George’s modeling aspirations, everybody’s fair game. I have the need, the need to SMASH!

Zipp 404s@##=#<6,L>@##=#

I’ve done it now. I began writing reviews as a way to take swipes at some stuff I owned and use it as a springboard to get to use new, fancy stuff. Now my bluff has been called and I was able to get my undeserving hands upon a set of Zipp 404 wheels via the kindness of Mark Alden of Campmor and Sandy Chapman of Tifosi Sales. Now I’m going to have to be a “journalist” and follow up on things and do research and such. Ugh! Think of this edition of “hate” as a gentle reminder that life isn’t fair. If you didn’t hate me before, feel free to start now.

Carbon Fiber food chain
The carbon fiber food chain goes as follows: aerospace at the top, Formula One and auto racing second, and everything else (including cycling) third. Zipp’s founder, Leigh Sargent, spent a couple of years before graduating with the Williams Formula One team, and since Formula One budgets can range from $250 million to $300 million dollars, he probably had quite a few sessions in the old wind tunnel. Granted, since he was an undergraduate, he might have been testing the effects of airflow on driver’s pinky fingers, but he was in the tunnel nonetheless.

Dimples
@##=#<2,R>@##=#These rims are dimpled on the side, the reason being, in the short explanation, “it makes them faster.” If you are satisfied with that explanation, skip to the next section, Sergeant Short Attention Span, if not, read on Captain Meticulous. Dimpling’s most popular application is on golf balls; the theory behind it is that the dimples act as “turbulators” meaning they create a layer of turbulence in the air around the rotating ball, and this turbulent boundary layer reduces drag. And the balls fly farther.

Zipp uses the dimples on their rims to direct the air flow around the rim, making it faster. They call this ABLC (Aerodynamic Boundary Layer Control), which is explained on their web site in excruciating detail on their site here. There, you just learned something from me, don’t you feel dirty? Plus, I really like running my fingers over the dimples. Mmmm, dimples.

Hubs
.@##=#<4,L>@##=#These wheels have the lightest hubs ever built into a production wheelset. Do you need to hear anything else? If you do, here’s some details. The steel for the ratchet rings and pawls are cut using a technique used to make spinal implants and replacement knees, this means Zipp can use much harder and stronger steel, so you can also perform surgery with these hubs. Zipp doesn’t recommend that you try that, though

Zipp has also reduced the resistance of the hub freewheeling by using a spring material named Phynox. This material is used in missile and aircraft guidance systems. So, the hubs can be used as a military weapon as well as for humane purposes, a Ying and Yang thing, if you will.@##=#<5,L>@##=#

Zipp also drills their flange ears using something called 5 Axis drilling. This allows us to angle the spokes so that they exit the flange with exactly the right angle to make a cross with another spoke, keeping the forces exactly linear throughout the entire system after the wheel is built. Ok, I just lifted that sentence from the Zipp web site, but I’m sure it will make sense to someone like Andy Shen – he’s a nerd. My point is that these nutcases are willing to go all out on every part of their wheels.

In their cartridges, their balls are ultra precision and 2.5 times rounder than the highest precision balls used elsewhere. Do you know how hard it was to write that without giggling? It also means that these rims save you about 1 watt at 30 mph, does that mean anything to you? No? Good, then I can probably pass you.

You’re riding them where?
I was able to slip one past the goalie when I was talking to Sandy, the Zipp rep, when I mentioned that I would be using the wheels at Floyd Bennett Field. I may have “accidentally” mumbled something about racing or I might have mis-spoke and said I would be joining a knitting circle or something like that, either way.

@##=#<1,L>@##=#Zipps used to have the critique that they weren’t durable enough, but they’ve addressed that issue by adding more carbon to the rim bed to increase the strength. Hmmm, where would be a good place to test this? I have to say the wheels did very well on FBF’s lunar asphalt surface and held up to the abuse admirably. I felt very comfortable riding the wheels and they didn’t feel like I thought deep section rims would – I imagined something like a cross between a slap or a kick to the crotch. So, no crotch impact feeling whatsoever. Certainly a positive if I’ve ever seen one. I’m hoping to be able to see how they hold up to a season’s worth of FBF abuse. That right there is a very obvious hint, let me repeat that. I WOULD LIKE TO TEST THEM ALL SEASON AT FBF!

After using the wheels at FBF performance-wise, here’s what happened. The previous week I was in breaks and got caught and finished fourth in a field sprint. I brought the wheels and got in a break, stayed away and finished second. The only logical conclusion to be reached is that these wheels will put you on the podium.

And as far as riding crosswinds (which they have at FBF – did you know that?) go, I would say that it takes a little getting used to, but the learning curve isn’t steep. I did notice that when I turned into the crosswinds at FBF, I had to pay attention because the front wheel would get a drift of wind and move the bars. I would liken the riding technique to learning to sail – wind can be your friend.

The heat is on
After all these years, I finally get to quote Glen Frey! Check that one off the life goals list! Carbon fiber heats up, that’s the way it is folks. That’s why they used to have you use those cork brake pads, because other pads would melt or explode even. Zipp has partnered with Kool Stop to make carbon brake pads to take the heat a carbon braking surface generates. I used these pads and after a days braking on steep downhills. The down spin side of the brakes had these carbon dust bunnies from the accumulated particles melting together. They help make you look like you were really going fast, so that’s a positive, but the cost of putting a set of pads on the bike is $40, let’s call that a negative. Plus, you ride compatriots can smell you braking, that’s a push. The pads don’t do their dust bunny thing on my aluminum rims.

The heat from braking also seemed to make the wheels “pulse” when they were under heavy load, another thing to get used to when riding these wheels. Here’s a short list of things I would be willing to get used to in order to ride these wheels:
Rims turn to Concord Grape jelly at over 60 mph
Rims emit bagpipe music when cornering at over 28 mph
Hubs smell like rotting sausage when transported in the car
Spokes promote the growth of back hair when ridden at AT

Where does this leave us?
There you have it; I have drunk the Zipp Kool Aid. In fact, in the future I will be prone to drink any additional flavors they come out with. The wheels have a suggested retail price of $1750, pricey enough, in fact, way too pricey. Don’t buy them; I do not want to race against anyone else using these wheels. Forget everything I’ve mentioned above.

Time for hate
I now have to dodge Sandy the Zipp Rep in order to weasel as many seconds as I can with my precious, precious wheels. In fact I will attempt to hypnotize Sandy now via the internet. Forget about schmalz…forget about schmalz… forget about schmalz… forget about schmalz…forget about schmalz…

Hate Disclaimer
Hate Volume 6 here
Hate Volume 5 here
Hate Volume 4 here
Hate Volume 3 here
Hate Volume 2 here
Hate Volume 1 here

19 Comments

LaCorte

Yo Dan I am convinced however only becausze you are testing the product. I want to do a story on the new aluminum clincher bracking surfaced 404’s. Hook it up! IF I like them I will buy them. I already own the HED Jet 60’s, the Mavic cosmic’s and now it is time to test and possibly own the clincher 404’s. Is there anyway that I can swap the hub in the rear for a track hub? See if you could make that happen. I am very interested in the new clincher version.

kwk

one really great thing zip does iis put the nipples outside so you can change a broken spoke with out the un glue bullshit you need to do with every other carbon wheel out there.

Eugene

"so you can change a broken spoke"
Do the nipples still seat in the rim straight (aiming at the center of the hub)? Or do they now seat at an angle (in the direction of the spoke)?
The reason I ask: many broken spokes later…

Charles

Zipp is fantastic at marketing, but their quality control still leaves much to be desired. And when you call their support number with problems, you get people whose knowledge seems to be limited to whatever is on the Zipp website. I’ve gone through two sets of 404s; a 2005 model with bad hubs (hopefully, the ’06 redesign fixes, but hubs have always been weak), and a 2006 set that arrived with rounded nipples and spoke tension all over the place. I’d recommend spending less and getting HED Jets (clincher) or Stingers (tubular). The people at HED know their stuff and stand behind their product.

Rob

I also have an issue with zipp have a 404 Clincher built into a Powertap SL purchased from zipp which arrivied out of true and spoke tensions all over the place. The front is a crash rebuild which came back perfect so their QC seems a bit lacking. But I LOVE THESE WHEELS!

Littlefield

Back to the TUFO tape discussion for a sec. Last night I had occasion to need to change the rear tubular that I glued on using the TUFO extreme tape. All I can say is WOW. I was stunned at how strong this stuff is. Any faint notion of the tire ever coming off the rim while riding will be dispelled if you try this just once. It took an hour of pushing and pulling and straining just to get to the point where the tire was BEGINNING to come come off the rim. I have blisters on both thumbs this morning. (Admittedly, I don’t work with my hands for a living.) If I had to do this at the side of the road, I’d be there a very long time. Once I got the tire moved enough to get a few fingers beneath it, the process got a bit easier. The best part was that once the tire was separated from the wheel completely, the tacky rubberized base tape came up easily and cleanly, leaving a perfect, like-new surface for mounting a new tire (tonight’s project).

kwk

Euegene, excellent question. i blew throught 3 rear reynolads dv carbons because the drive side spoke nipples are placed straight in the rim perfectly vertical rather than off set to the center of the wheel. the offset nipple allows for a straight spoke and thus no bend where it meets the nipple.
since the nipples are outside the rim on the zipp you can see the alignment and the lack of a bend on the spoke at the meeting of the spoke and nipple.

if you look at the new mavic all carbon wheels they have an offset nipple too. but inside the rim.

Chris L

Does anyone have an idea of how long the brake pads and wheels might last. I’m sure its all over the place and depends on race, style etc., but does anyone have any general thoughts?

lee3

Corima Carbon Clinchers w/corima cork pads – the pads are sold by the pack (8 pads). I picked up the wheelset in Sept of 04′ and have replaced F/R set once. The old set, though worn, I still use on the TT bike. I rode 80% crca, 30% prosp.pk, everywkend from mid Feb to Dec including (orchards descent, Perkins Memorial, and Owasco Stg. Race) swapping pads/wheels on 2 road different bikes. They dont last as long as rubber but it takes some doing to wear’em down. – Advise: Never use cork/carbon during wet rainy conditions. You essentially have no brakes. Whenever there’s a threat of rain I find myself bringing the back up alum.hoops (F only) and rubber pads. Even on fast descents in dry weather the stopping action is effective but not like with rubber. You’ll find yourself being much more cautious due to the longer bleed time on the stop action – at first. Eventually you adapt and stopping becomes effortless because of one’s improved timing on braking effectiveness. Lockups will be a thing of the past but sometimes lockin up will save you skin! That said, I’d buy another set. Dont discard the alum though.

Brian R

Zipps are fast but they break easily — I’ve gone through several rims. I’ve also had problems with the bearings and had to have several of them replaced, but I still race them…I bought a pair of used 404 clinchers on Ebay for Central Park and FBF after cracking rims on what I would call minor bumps. Then there’s losing the valve core inside the wheel…

lee3

The bladed spokes make the corima clinchers virtually bomb proof but at 1670g, they’re no flyweights for the 38mm profile but lighter than say a pair Kysirum elites. I’ve hit some very catastophic holes where guys around me swerve wide because of the sound and the only thing I’m fixing is the bar stem alignment. I’ve never needed to true either wheel – still!

Rain tire

Schwalbe makes a special "rain" version of their clincher that is hyper-grippy. Should be great for crits. I think it wears a bit on the fast side.

zipp pads on alu in rain

Dan, have you used the Zipp/Kool Stop pads on an aluminum rim in the rain? I’m curious how they work in those conditions

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