As racers, we trend towards being an entitled bunch. We (allegedly) train long hours, make many sacrifices and even get up early in order to display our fitness to the assembled rodents, tweeting birds and park-soiling dogs that bear witness to our morning mightiness.
As a racer, what do you think a promoter should provide? What should you get for your entry fee? Do you need to know you finished in 43rd place? Do you need a personal photographer on the course? What are the basics a racer should expect from a promoter?
And since there are only a handful of people who do all of the promoting in the area, the notion that they do it only for cash (heaven forbid someone make a living in cycling), is so wrong-headed that it gives Kim Jong-Il pause. So I beg of you to be thoughtful and reasonable in this discussion, as we can’t afford to alienate any promoters, because without them, there would be no opportunities to impress the squirrels.
Out of town they should provide a full list of results and times, even if you are 43rd, you might want to gauge your fitness and see if you can get 40th the next. Park races, top 10 is fine.
I’m fine with them making $$$ off of it, they put in the work
Sounds very reasonable.
I’ve promoted two bike in the past, both collegiate race too(the Stevens Crit last in circuit race this year) and I have give guys like Charlie I a ton of respect. The paperwork, endless emails, and long nights do take their toll. From promoter to promoter, I think more bathrooms would be better. I don’t care if you’re racing in Prospect Park, New England or somewhere in Jersey there is always a huge line for the facilities. As a racer, maybe a complimentary bagel after the race would be nice.
Full results only need to be as deep as the money pays. After that, everyone has the same place.
Results should be quick and easy and always show at least top ten and if it’s a road race, top twenty. This should be quickly posted at any race and should be accessible online within a day. This is not hard, it’s simple data entry and we paid for a sanctioned race. I’m sure most of us want to upgrade and sometimes can’t do so because of stupid negligence. USA Cycling should make a rule that the promoters must post timely and accessible results.
I am all about making money and I have no problem with that.
Why should anyone fault them for trying to make a profit? Just make sure that you’re providing a FULL service operation which includes timely results..
As far as photos are concerned, you spoiled us. Don’t give it to me raw then expect a condom!
i did about 12 cross races this year, post race free beer , gels , water bottles , tons of food for sale , real prizes all were the norm. SICX has cute chicks giving out some kind of corn sweetened drink!!
the only swag you get in the parks for free is i punch in the noggin from a former green beret
I’ve been the promoter for a small race in Rhode Island for the last 8 years. I have made money every year that I have put this race together. I use 100% of the money for a cause that is close to me. My goal is to provide a racer’s race, and it seems to work out. I provide full results, enough porta potties, a safe enclosed course, categories for everyone, race distances that are worthy of people who ride thousands of miles a year (no 15 mile crits.), plenty of parking, easy access to the course, a first aid kit on site plus there is an ambulance station within one mile of the course, free food for volunteers and race staff, a prize list that grows with the number of entries, all races except juniors and cat 5’s pay 10 places, lots of primes, real start times (no this races follows that race), a sizable discount for those entering a second race, and good organization. I don’t provide things that will add to the cost of the race and result in higher entry fees like an announcer or t-shirts. It’s all simple stuff that makes an enjoyable experience for people who come to my race. I know the race isn’t a big event or a major goal for anyone’s season, but the people who come seam to like the format.
Forget the promoters. You want to hear about entitlement, ask any owner of an NYC bike shop. Not a day goes by that some doughy Cat 3/4 with a job and a 401K doesn’t walk in and ask for a laughable discount.
Seriously, next time you want a laugh, ask the shop guys what some racers come in and say……
we are doing all of this for the glory. race distance, port o pottys , results , have nothing to do with this
we need more podium girls. and charge 5 bucks to get a pic with them if you placed off the podium
you will make a mint
9:08 AM: Good idea. Just grab a couple girls on the West Side Highway at 5:14 AM. At least I think they’re girls.
Entry fees total = 8000$
Prizes = 800$
Rider insurance = 750 $
USAC event fee = 25 $
Chief Referree = 40 $
Chief Judge = 30$
Other Officials = 25$ each
That leaves about 6000$ for promoters hard work.
The fees go up every year. It is 32$ for this year.
I’m all for crappers and schwag, but it’s the race itself that matter most to me. My priorities are a safe and interesting course, good marshaling, and reasonable entry fees. Bkill is perhaps an exception, but I’d rather pay less, do more races, and have shallower payouts than have to ration my racing due to super expensive entry fees.
For $75 for a one day race, i.e. B’kill ’10, there should be neutral wheel and bike support for all fields and neutral water.
All I want these days is a new bike every 2 years (you can get at least 20% off retail by shopping online – I support local shops for the small stuff and mechanical work) and 3 hours each Saturday and Sunday to ride in the morning. Everything else is just cream cheese…
having lived in the hinterlands, i appreciate the shear number, and variety of races available to us ingrates.
post-race massages and psychological counseling would be nice.
but way to expensive. 32 bucks is what out of town races with real mileage cost. Even FBF what the hell? When Millie and Tony ran the series it was like 8 bucks to race. Now its like 15? Each year I do less charlie races as each year he charges more and more.
Promoters should take after the guys that put on Housatonic and have a spread of food and drink after the race.
I’d like to see bike throwing added to races as prems
If you place you should at least get your entry fee back AT LEAST. Just getting to the race is expensive let alone entry fee. Most of the young talent in this sport don’t have money for a decent set of tires!
All I’m saying stop keeping the U23s down man
You got it wrong. It’s a combined A/B/C/W field, with a prime across the 72nd street traverse on lap 12.
Then afterward the semi-annual CRCA bike throwing competition to decide the B field Jim Boyd.
Having a bike throwing prime during the race doesn’t make sense because that would be dangerous.
I don’t even understand the point of payouts in local races. Maybe it’s a euro thing we’ve adopted, but it’s so little there really isn’t a point. We all would be better off with lower entry fees and no prize money.
Do the NY races had an announcer and a PA system? Around there that seems to be the MO for a race. The promoter seems to have to hire an announcer which provides the start/finish area location with some tunes in between races and of course announcing the race as it rolls past. That I now is up to $5K depending on the announcer (yea, I know DJ), so that eats into the money to be made.
I like the massage hint, but it would have to be a 3rd party masseuse who takes cash up front and hopefully doesn’t do a 1 hour massage for everyone or only 8 racers will get a happy ending.
Podium girls with a $5 charge, sound like a dream and you know the girls will stop going after being man handled all day.
Psychological counseling? How about a palm reading, its the same thing anyway.
Mean “Around here” not there, damn typo.
Timely results, submitted to USCF. I had my upgrade turned down on multiple occossions, from multiple cats because promoters did not send in results, or only sent in the placings. Therefore a top placing was considered a first in a race of seven people and was not awarded the correct number of points. I have heard rumor that it has to do with the insurance the promoter has to pay (per head?). I don’t know if this is true or laziness, or what, but timely results both online and with the uscf is not too much to ask. Especially in a series where cumulative results are important. As far as the fee: it is very cheap to race a bike, cheaper than a round of golf or even a night at the movies with popcorn. That being said, if you want a buffet, raise the fees like a triathalon, and then everyone can eat and get a participation trophy at the end.
agree that the most important thing is a (relatively) safe well run race, properly marshalled & pace vehicles etc.
i do think the cost of park races, especially charlie’s races, are getting out of hand. entry fees have been going up way more than inflation.
Do the PA races had an announcer and a MO system? Around there that seems to be the NY for a race.
could you translate that?
If, as is often said, park races are about training then both lap times and results are helpful as a gauge of how the training is going.
Musts include accurate timely results, ample places to go to relieve yourself w/out getting in trouble (most of us are topping up on fluid to the last moment), and moto drivers and wheel vehicle drivers who know what they are doing. (was at a race last weekend where it was announced at the start that the wheels in/wheels out car was neutral, but driver wouldn’t give a wheel)
Some nice things a promoter can do for free: sweep tight corners of sand and debris, clearly mark 100meters 300 meters and 500 meters to go (for all races but especially for TTs), make clean water available, tap is fine.
Some really nice things a promoter can do: subsidize the women’s and U23 fields. And of course podium girls are ALWAYS a plus.
As for promoters making $$, hell yeah.
I hate how most out of state crits seem to have some lame ass dude on a bike saying stupid shit like ‘dude, i didn’t know they even MADE frames that big!” while ‘sympathy for the devil’ plays in the background. nothing makes it seem even less pro
um, that’s “lame ass dude on a mic”, i’m the lame ass dude on a bike.
So is it generally believed that Charlie is just squeezing us for everything he can? Is it possible his expenses are going up and at a higher rate than inflation? I have no idea what the expenses are. But his Prospect Park races max out at 260 racers. For every $260 his total expenses increase, he’s got to pass along $1 per rider just to stay even. And that assumes he sells out every race.
Maybe he should run four fields like other promoters, but I’ll pay $5 more for a clean, safe, well-run race with decent motos and a low chance of fields running into each other. Oh, and he posts results pretty quickly.
Even if it’s going to his bottom line I’d rather Charlie be wealthier and happier than quitting and having AVD do all the races. I shudder to think. There’s not enough bandwidth in the galaxy to handle all the complaining.
yeah we all appreciate Charlie and he runs a tight ship. maybe that’s worth a premium. It’s just that when a park race is $35 (with the bike reg fee) or $38 day of, it is a little pricey.
the truth is though, most of us are crazy enough that we’ll do any race that we can regardless of how much it costs or who’s promoting it.
Over the years the prize money has stayed the same or lowered while the entry fees have doubled.
When Lenny put on the Spring Series it was $75 for the whole thing or $15 per day for pre-reg. T-shirts were a plenty for bigger races as promoters seemed to have little trouble finding sponsors, and one was able to subsidize their income with the prize money even in the lower categories.
What has gotten better:
Photo’s a plenty. I had to get my mom to take a picture if I ever wanted to see myself in a race, and I raced a lot (87 one year)
Leader jersey,
Those only existed in big stage races. If you lost the jersey before the end of the race you had to pass it down. Now it’s much easier to get a leaders jersey.
Safety; Improved
Clear results
A camera was rare, and you often had to fight for a result harder then you did in the race. Chip Berenzi (BikeLine) is still mad at me 20 years later when I told him his race sucked when he couldn’t properly place me. I took 5th or so and he averaged the money form 5th – 10th.
Posting results
I had to hope the promoter would send the results to VeloNews to see my name in print, now we have the Internet.
Overall I think race promoting is a very difficult job. They all do it because they love the sport, but few will do it for free. Many promotes put the profits back in the sport, Greg Avon did that with the Elite Kissena team. So supply and demand. Each promoter has to find that sweet spot. For some it’s $14 (Aki at Bethel) for some it’s $25 for a similar event.
so true
Its simple really. Promoters have to pay $5.00 to usac for insurance for each rider that thaey report. They pay after the race so if no one crashes, they don’t have to report that many racers and the money that they save goes into their pocket. Pretty bad system if you ask me.
if you don’t crash, you get a $5.00 refund.
9:06 – so very true
I don’t understand why people continue to diss AVD. The guy is getting up at like 230 in the morning when it is like 25 degrees. The spring series are great training races. It seems like hard work to get it all together.
I don’t see anyone else lining up to promote the SS, I could be wrong
Without the spring series I doubt I would have the same race fitness, considering I need to race myself into somewhat decent (MAB) form.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/pan-american-mountain-bike-continental-championships-cc/elite-and-under-23-women-cross-country/photos/115338
Imagine that in the park.
Dieter should have hired them
I wouldn’t complain too much the price of racing in New York City. There’s nothing like it. Most places it’s the same nice, bland drill – the number pickup in the junior high cafeteria that smells vaguely like puke, the sadly homogeneous parking lot of middle-aged guys spinning on trainers in front of Saabs and 5-Series BMWs; the silent wait at the Port-a-John; and finally, the perfectly nice race with perfectly sorted results that get sent to your email account barely 4 hours after finishing. Everything is nice and clean and a tiny bit boring. Whereas you come to New York and you really never know what you are going to get. Some times you’re paced by a motorcycle. Some days you’re behind some cracked-out minivan with a missing bumper that looks like it has 340,000 miles on it and was driven straight from Kiev. Some days it goes totally perfectly. But almost always, regardless if you win or sit in as pack fill, something bizarre happens, and you get to tell your friends about the time the field had to stop for a wood chipper or the vice squad making an arrest or when the real life NYC taxi cab drove out on to the course like it did a while ago at Harlem. Floyd? It’s one of the most eccentric, strangest places to race in the country. Besides, you can actually ride your bike to nearly every race in this town, a perk that nearly every other racer in this country can’t even dream about. Finally, there’s an insane number of wonderful characters in NYC racing scene, some of whom will become your best friends, and some of whom should be on the wall at the post office, but all of whom make it special. No two racers are exactly alike in NYC, and no two races are, either. It’s what makes it great. Pay your $35 and be happy you can.
4:24 post of the month!
That is very well said.
Fuuuuuuck yeah. Racing in this city is the shit.
right on. a true new yorker. you want to be a biker savant, move to colorado.
You say they warm up in front of there M5’s and Saab’s yet they rode in to the race?
Most races around here you drive to the start at o-dark thirty then find the start area. Pay your fee or verify your online payment, then get your number and hopefully you parked somewhere where they won’t tow you or give you a ticket or isn’t part of the course. There is hardly ever an place to buy water/food, if you brought it great if not SOL. Then the race fans are usually family friends and out of shape racers/riders which at times want to cross the race course for some unknown reason right at the pack is approaching. I don’t remember any cars or animals on the course except when a pack of birds one time decided to attack the peleton and a few made it through the triangle of the bike of the guy in front of me. One hit me and bounced off, on the next lap there were several birds flapping around on the road, which we finished off by running over them, damn crazy birds!
4:24 for the win. I’m so spoiled by the tight-knit bike racing scene in NYC that I don’t even know if I’d have the motivation to race living somewhere else. Being able to ride to the races, ride to group rides, etc is worth it’s weight in gold even if it takes place at o’dark thirty and increases in cost each year way more than inflation.
only have experience racing in NYC (and out of town events like Battenkill & Jamestown which are super cool of course)…the idea of an office park crit does sound kind of depressing.
Would it be a good idea for other cities to mimic NYC and have early morning race series in their major parks? The races are easier for people with kids and jobs to get to, as opposed to the crits around the country that happen in the middle of the day. I know that without the morning park races, I would race about half as much as I do now.
1. Racing at dawn is an acquired taste. There’d probably be more people racing in NYC if the races weren’t so early.
2. Screw results, podium chicks, DJ’s, etc…I would gladly pay an extra couple of bucks if the promoter ensured there would be no trash or delivery trucks pulling in front of the group coming into the final sprint–as seems to happen every other race, or so, around here.
Chicago and Boulder have had Wed night crit series in the past. I’m a big fan of those.
That’s an interesting question–would there be more people racing if the races were later? I know I would race less as family activities take precedent on weekends.
I like the early races for the same reason as Dan. You can get up race and be home before the wife and kids start to get irritated that you have been gone all day.
The early races are what make it work for people with jobs, spouses, families. Move the races to noon and it’d be all kids, divorcees and lonely “minsters,” A/K/A male spinsters.
Of course it will. That’s why all the out of town races have such low turn out :rolleyes
Any lack of family guys would easily be picked up by people from out of town who could finally make it to NYC races on time.
i like to race while still drunk
Who the hell wants out of town people racing in New York City?
You guys must be new around here. You think it’s easy to get one midday bike race permitted in New York, much less a series? You could sooner get a permit to do a live execution in Union Square.
If you’re gonna bring the complaints, bring some basic knowledge of how it all works. I fart on your naivete.
Dear Luca,
I’ll bite at the typical disrespectful baiting on this site. Thanks for being a shemale.
Clearly, it would be next to impossible to get the permit to race in the parks mid day. It’s dangerous enough dodging German tourists at the hour we’re racing now. I was merely responding to the bogus argument that there would be a lack of racers due to a later start time.
I appreciate you allowing me to clarify myself.
I never raced still drunk, but often hung over
Arthur Internal Routing –
So basically you were saying something smart about a dumb hypothetical. Got it. But upgrade on the German and Shemale jokes. You’ll never work the big rooms.
i like the early format as well as it’s easy on the wife and kids but wouldn’t mind if they started an hour later.
If you aren’t contesting the sprint at the front, then your placing says nothing of your fitness. Most smart racers will not bother sprinting if they are not going to place top 10. It’s just not worth the risk for no reward.
Someone here is leaving out numbers. They conveniently left out the park permit fee, the moto pacer fee and what of course the course marshal fees. Those add up to lots of cash. If a promoter could make $6k on one race, you can be sure more people would be doing it. I’m sure the promoter makes a decent amount of money on the race, but it’s not going to make him rich any time soon.
$15 for the Tuesday night series is a real bargain. Check fees for other races as well as other sports. I think Charlie charges fees in line with his costs. Putting on a race at FBF is cheaper than at a PP or CP simply due to the lower number of marshals required. Marshal costs add quite a bit to putting on a race.
It’s pretty low to accuse a promoter of stealing from USAC, and the insurance company, but under reporting the number of riders. That should not happen as the official is supposed to count all the riders and then he fills out the officials report and tells the promoter how much he needs to pay USAC cycling. So unless the chief official is in cahoots with the promoter, that is not going to happen. Also, it gives less credibility to the accuser when they don’t even know that the 2010 insurance fee per rider is $3, not $5. See http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=2727 for race fees.
For those of you that want midday races, it ain’t going to happen in Central Park. It would be way too dangerous trying to mix a 27mph pack of racers with your average UES couple pushing their baby carriage down the middle of the road oblivious to other park users. That’s just a recipe for disaster. You can, and do, get later races at FBF.
Since USAC allows upgrades for finishing races (5-4 and 4-3). There is something to be said for providing a list of finishers. Maybe not a complete ordered list after the paying places. This would allow people to better prove that they’re finishing races and not try to sprint for 15th place in the hope they’re going to get a $3 prize.
keep a list of your races. submit it. get the upgrade. no need for results showing you came in 43rd.
How perfect is this 1-2-3 in terms of riders with taint?
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/04/news/ricco-wins-stage-at-trentino_112654
Stage 2
1. Riccardo Ricco (Ita), Ceramica Flaminia-Bossini Docce In 4:47:59
2. Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz), Astana, S.T.
3. Ivan Basso (Ita), Liquigas Doimo, S.T.