getting kind of old. We all get it. those on this site who actually follow pro cycling know whats up. Those not in the know of how pro cycling operated in the 80s-90s and today will see Lance for only the fundraising and inspiration he has provided. Maybe its time to move on and let the Feds sort it out.
bobke
you have to wonder if a site like this would even exist if it were not for LA and the hype he brought to US cycling in the late 90s early 2000s… For better or worse.
schmalz
I liked bikes before Lance came around—hard to believe, I know…
bobke
But did the rest of us? Guessing some did but not enough to support all these cycling sites, coaches, bike shops, races etc. Fact is, the guy helped elevate cycling here in the states to the next level and some.
schmalz
True, Lance did elevate it, but he did it by deciding to mimic what he thought was “The Euro Way”, i.e. “they are all on something and we can’t compete without taking stuff”; and then expecting his teammates to “act professionally” also. Seems like the Lance elevator goes straight to the doping floor.
Matteo Dropout
…bad asses…how ironic is it that geeky, “space case” & befuddled looking andy schleck, who we make fun of for various reasons, can ramp it up on a bicycle & no matter how fit, macho or “bad ass” any one posting here thinks they are, well, mrs schleck’s youngest son can kick your ass all day long, out on the road…
…just sayin’…
…& sayin’ it with love, bgw…
Mohamed Limit Screw
andy schleck would squeal like a frightened little baby pig descending harlem hill in the rain.
…to charles pelkey & i hope things went well on tuesday…
…beyond that, business as usual @ toto & thank the cycling gods for that…
…with laughter, love, bgw…
Charles Pelkey
Matteo Dropout, thank you for the good wishes. I get another round of surgery on Thursday. Radiation, chemo and whatever to follow. Prognosis is good, though
Mohamed Limit Screw
Mr. Pelkey, godspeed on your recovery.
Andy Shen
I liked bikes pre-Armstrong too. We’re not in this for the money, so this site would exist with or without him.
Also, your logic seems to say that if someone’s a dick a couple of times you should call him on it, but if he’s a colossal douche you should just let it go.
bobke
You have responded to my argument by shifting the focus to Lance and his doping. That is not my point. He brought millions to the industry directly or indirectly by way of new sponsors, riders, and increased R&D budgets for all bike related companies. This all trickled down to guys like you, coaches, local teams, shops and races. You wonder if a team like Garmin would exist if it were not for the Postal days bringing so many new fans and cyclists to the industry. Its hard to measure but the guy has had a huge impact on cycling. Whether he was a fake, cheat whatever is an entirely different topic.
bobke
I am not a Lance Fan but I recognize the positives he has brought to the industry. Also, my example of your site existing was more hypothetical. While you may not do this for the money, there are many industry types at your level that do this “for the money” – all these local coaches, online retailers, high end mechanics and endless local racing etc.
schmalz
Well, not really. How can you laud a guy for bringing people to the sport and refuse to scrutinize the person who is bringing people to the sport? That’s like saying Stalin really helped a lot of Russians relocate.
mikeweb
Take the original statement and replace LA with Lemond, replace late 90s & 2000s with late 80s to early 90s. True, Lance raised cycling interest another level or two above what Lemond did, there’s no denying that. And the ‘trickle down’ is probably way beyond that. ‘Hype’ was a great choice of word, btw. But we’re still talking about the margins: so cycling has risen above the popularity of skeet shooting! Awesome! Look out bowling, you’re next!!
When I first got interested in cycling it was the ‘Lemond era’ but I was also a fan of other ‘Euro’ racers, the whole sport, really. And of course I was well aware that doping was rampant back then (and still with us today) but didn’t let it ruin the beauty of the sport for me.
For me and maybe others it isn’t necessarily that Lance doped – that might make him more of a tragic figure – but the fact that he turned it into a cottage industry of sorts and ‘strong-armed’ (get it?) many from his generation of American racers into it as well. Also that these aggressive tactics continue to this day.
bobke
I agree with most of what you say but still believe much good has come from Lance being in the sport and winning his 7 Tours. Thanks for the friendly debate. I think if you focus on the avid racer who was into the sport pre – lance your points are all very well taken. If you focus on the family and weekend warrior who does the weekly club ride and spends an average of $1-$2k a year on cycling now – that is the benefit.
Andy Shen
Now we’re triple teaming you. You seem to take as a given that it’s a good thing that a lot of people got to line their pockets. Is it a good thing that Carmichael has a coaching business but bought the silence of juniors he doped without their knowledge? Is it a good thing that John Burke sold a lot of bikes but had to help smear Greg LeMond’s reputation to do so?
the Sensei
I don’t want to sound preachy here, but I’ve been in the bike shop biz for 25 years now. Although Lance, et al has had some influence on the small details of product. He has had very little attributable influence on the total number of bikes sold or total business revenue in the bike industry as a whole. Before, during and after Lance, LBS’s sold appox. the same number of bikes. The prices have gone up and the technology has grown faster, but the number of units has pretty much stayed the same since the late 80’s when I got my first bike shop job.
Florian Steerer
The ferris wheel shown in 3rd frame is no longer in Paris. It’s been transferred to Birmingham, England (of which it is arguably the least ugly man-made structure). So even there Cav would have a head start on the Schlecks!
bobke
I am waiving the white flag so to speak as you have all made very fine points. Thanks again for the light hearted debate as you have made me rethink my position. Finally, if there is hard data showing the industry as a whole has not grown more than the standard inflationary increase during the Lance Era and on, then my position will seriously change on Lance. Also, my point earlier on industry growth was more focused on the trickle down effect – Not Trek, Carmichel etc. but more guys like local coaches, additional racing available and sponsors for small Cat1-3 teams etc. Again, you all make fine points and I surrender.
Baptiste Ceramic
“Stay classy” from the guy who has made second career out of character assisnation– Lance is truly the king of all sociopaths–he has no idea how psycho he really is.
Noa Sealant
The TV car that took out the cyclist was a Citroen.
Martin Headbadge
Douchey is as douchey does…
Florian Drainhole
What a beautiful and swank area to have a BAAS Dr.
I’m sure they have lots of overweight women too.
Doping is a symptom of the fact that national and regional accomplishment in sports have always gone hand in hand with massive symbolic and actual global capital. LA is merely another, and extremely effective, tool (both senses of the word) in this apparatus; McQuaid a ruthless and corrupt enabler; etc. Of course, LA too is the supremo douche.
the Sensei
… that the sport of cycling in America has grown in it’s overall capacity over the past 10-15 years. It does encompass a broader spectrum then it did 20-30 years ago. I just don’t think that much of it can be directly attributed to Lance. If there had been no LA, then someone or something else would have been the “Guy responsible for the growth”
Andy Shen
Thanks for the civil debate, Bobke, very nice for a change.
I raced against Frankie, Mike McCarthy, George H, and Erin Hartwell as a kid. There was no Lance. There was Lemond, and I was in awe of him.. Because of that privilege, I help juniors now. Because of Lance, I want to give up. I’ve had kids straight up ask me if they’ll need to dope to be competitive. Like Lance.
Greshman’s Law at work.
So “Bobke.” you care about the sport as a sport, or about the number of Fred$ willing to put in their pocket change to the sport?
And in the same vein, do you care about actual dollars in actual cancer research, about cancer as cancer, not cancer as human shield against all criticism and false hope that crushes the dying? I speak from experience.
How many relatives have you lost to cancer? I count five.
I suggest you read some Dostoevsky.
schmalz
It’s been a good discussion. I’d rely on Sensei numbers on total bikes sold, but I think more people watched the Tour because of Lance—and his effect on the Trek company was very big.
KH
Not to forget the pernicious effect on our governing bodies. Lance truly helped raise the bar from the ballot box stuffing days of Maltese and Toefield.
bobke
Thanks – you count 5. I count my mother at 49, Aunt at 59, grandparents, friends etc and many still fighting the fight. My list is at a point where I stopped counting. Thanks again all.
KH
Of course it’s Gresham’s Law, not Greshman.
Bad spelling drives out the good.
ant1
where did all this civility come from? well done folks.
Lukas O-Ring
Now LA can do the Leadville race and better Levi’s course record. You have to believe Lance did not dig having Levi better him, even in a MT Bike race.
Watching the video, I’d say he doped to win that race too.
bobke
is racing Leadville based on his post race interview.
KH
Also, I’ll happily concede that the Armstrong era brought people and money into the sport. Are these the people we want? If Wiesel offered me x thousand dollars for my team, could I take it? I’m supposed to go for a bike ride with Steve Johnson, do I? Maybe it’s not Dostoevsky but Camus’ Le Peste that’s the reference. Plague with a human face. Life is morally complex enough, I don’t expect sport to be different, but I don’t expect it to be worse. I don’t appreciate helping sustain as psychopath as a hero just for the sake of my LBS or so that my club can function normally within the governing system.
Hairy Leg MTBer
Dudes should all go for a ride on some dirt, smoke some weed and relax a little… Just sayin’
bobke
Thanks KH for citing my favorite book. The human condition is one of existence and survival to a degree and I agree, supporting LA – a definite bad guy, is no ones goal in the cycling industry (at least mine). However, the only point that I will not concede 100%, is that his hype and the money it brought to the industry small or large has had some trickle down effects on small industry business. If that allows the bike mechanic to pay his bills and feed is children – to survive, then I am ok with that. Unfortunately, after reviewing my position and hearing all your points, I am not so sure Lance has helped in this regard,. So sadly, I am 99% on your side of this argument. Please stop arguing with yourself … ;).
Bernie M.
Thanks to Lance, I made lots of money shorting Pfizer and Amgen during his TDF-winning years.
Way to go, bro!
mikeweb
Of course this isn’t even getting into the issue of what will happen to a lot of these ‘Lance fans’ as it becomes even more blatantly obvious that he doped, coerced and bullied others, bribed officials and *gasp* might’ve used at least a small portion of the ‘yellow bracelet’ money for this.
No question he helped to corrupt the sport. Possibly even worse than it was back in the ‘dirty old days’…
The truth is that any sport deserves fans who love the sport for itself, not just people worshiping one individual’s cult of personality.
I was going to apologize for the Mao/ Living Color reference, but someone did me one better. Props.
fearless yakov
but is what it is:
(I got lured into this conversation because you were all having a nice, civilized, intelligent discussion. I’m sure that aberration will quickly self-correct momentarily.)
I was born in rural Alabama in 1976. I don’t think you could’ve found 5 people you’d consider even recreational cyclists (tight pants, drop bars, skinny tires, whatever) within 100 miles of my home. My first awareness of cycling as a sport was seeing Lemond on ABC WWOS on Sunday afternoons. I was fascinated and read the SI articles about him when I could find them in the local library. I got into BMX bikes and bought my first real bike in the early 90s… I went on a some group rides, watched the Tour Dupont and TdF highlights on TV when I could find them… but I stopped riding and didn’t follow the sport at the pro level at all until 1999.
Lance brought me back into the sport. It was my interest in him that first led me to VeloNews. VN led me to Pez, to CN, to DailyPeloton, to BKW, to DrunkCyclist… and ultimately, through a bizarre sausage-and cheese-flavored internet wormhole, to Toto and NYVelocity.
And yeah, my mom’s diagnosis with stage IV breast cancer in 2004 probably played a role as well.
I’m now a cat 3 racer on a team that I founded. I ride thousands of miles a year, and spend thousands of dollars a year, on bike crap I don’t need. I race road bikes, mountain bikes, and cross bikes, in crits, road races, endurance races, gravel grinders, Super-Ds, and TTs, pretty much year round. I get up at 6 a.m. to watch pirated feeds of mid-week Euro-semi-classics on Sporza. I plan vacations, and my marriage, and my career, around bike races. I am, in almost every respect, an incurable bike junkie.
And I can honestly say I don’t think I’d have whatever you’d call this bizarre addiction if not for Lance. Love him (I do), hate him (I REALLY do), whatever, but you have to give him, and the phenomenon that he became, some credit to drawing me–and maybe some other people like me–into the sport.
Last anecdote: I rode a century in North Alabama Sunday. Of the 300 or so fredly participants, I bet (conservatively) that 75% had some item on their kit, their bike, their car, or all 3 that identified them, in some way, with Lance or Livestrong.
(yeah yeah yeah — tl,dr)
Kylian Saddlebag
Greg Olsen got me into this sport, not Lance.
bobke
You just argued my entire position. Thanks, I agree – just a bit less after my discussion with Dan eta al today. Now get ready for it… Oh and Mr. H, your arguments are too intelligent for me an I am guessing most of the readers on this board ;).
Xander Rim
I want to par-tay like it’s nine-teen ninety nine.
Francesco Butt
as well as quite a few of my high school friends, one of which also still races. There is no doubt Lance has helped the sport and industry.
Esteban Stiff
because of Toto.
Civility to Mengoni..
Nervous Nelly
I got into fearing downhills thanks to Andy Schleck.
Victor Polished
You guys should ask JV if you can do a Dekker interview. I’d like to read that.
Quinten Kevlar
i got into being aware of cancer because of lance
Hamza Fork
I got cancer because of doping.
bobke
back to normal…
Thomas Post
most likely. did not want to lose to a 45 year old local again
Andrea Bottle
I got into beef tapas because of Alberto Contador.
Nick777
I don’t believe anyone when the say “I’m not a Lance fan, but…”
Maxime Nipple
maybe this was covered already, but I wonder if Bunde Druggie winning natz again, could have “corrected” his ways by inviting KH to the podium…just saying…like since he stole that experience the first time around…and don’t all druggies worship LA for the way he manipulated the system to the NNNth degree???
Presta Jones
I started furiously typing my (civil) point of view on the topic being discussed when I remembered coming across the blog post referenced in the link below.
“Leave me in peace, everybody takes dope.” Jacques Anquetil
KH
Jared is not in my age group and took nothing from me.
However, in my opinion he disgraced the jersey that year so I only wore it a couple of times.
Doping masters are deeply pathetic. I can’t fathom what crippled egos they must have, what convoluted self justifications the have to generate, or what meager satisfactions they gain from beating up on people with children, aging parents, and full time jobs. I also can’t fathom how being between 30-34 constitutes being a master.
Salvestro Biopace
not to mention the health risks
Tristan Neck
Don’t what Jared y’all are talking about, but Jared the Subway Guy has provided dignity and honor to the otherwise plebian turkey sub on wheat for millions of lard asses worldwide.
PinK
i got into pink boxes thanks to mmaiko
i got into pink boxes and wine thanks to JV
i got into mute listening to bobke
Benjamin Clamp
hey Maxime Nipple, didn’t he serve his ban? STFU already. do you also stand outside prisons and wait for people to get released so you can harass them as well? how much atonement is required, who is the judge of that? love that link btw. i always ask the same thing, what about merckx and anquetil and coppi etc, why do they get a pass from everyone?
ken and his high horse fathoming to mengoni.
N Hawthorne
Right on. Not sure if I have more contempt for dopers or moralizers
Robin Compliant
Opinions are like arseholes…everybody has one and they usually stink.
Guillaume Clamp
Stinky arseholes to Mengoni.
Farinata Tracknut
NYC Super Team
If Real NYC All Stars could, would, should form to enter “Big Leagues” racing…
(no dopers or moralizers, or sympathizers, or thigh masters, please)
Here’s my top definite maybe’s, in no particular order:
Jermaine
Ricky
Savory
Loehner
Tibo Seatpost
The first three wouldn’t be able to finish a real race
Kylian Clamp
Savory NO!
Olsen yes, he’s so PRO
Tony Soprano
Yo Benjamin Clamp — Bunde may have served his 2 year suspension, but his reputation is tarnished forever, especially since he lied about it after being caught. “How much atonement is necessary?” Come clean. Tell us about why he did it. And even more importantly tell us who else is doping. merckx and anquetil and coppi get a pass because they all admitted to doping. Bunde lied and then went silent.
West Coast Reader
Late to the show.
I rode because I like to ride and bought a bike because of that and keep buying them for the same reason. Who is so lame they ride because they saw so an so win a race? Don’t think those people will keep doing it long, as its been proven. The regular group rides I see the same faces and did see an increase in those random dudes who no longer ride after a season or month due to them using someone else to spur them on to do something. The new riders who stick with it usually are totally oblivious to pro racing and its intricacies or at least don’t talk about it as much as the, well old timers. Not that we’re old or they are young or vice versa.
Did anyone ever think the increase in population might of had something to do with an increase in bike sales? I think DUI laws have also helped, what do you think those DUI people that are caught get around with? Just some factors to consider.
West Coast Reader
If it was truly a Lance factor that increased sales the moment he’s busted we should see a reverse spike in sales, right?
Keeping my fingers crossed so my next bike will be that much cheaper! Yet another reason to want him busted for his arrogance and well doping.
Bryan Topcap
I doubt any significant number of persons had become a bike racer or cyclist simply because of one professional athlete. It’s more likely that a combination of factors influenced someone to get into the sport or to rediscover cycling since most people rode bikes as a youth. There is most likely a “lance effect” of a certain amount of hype and recognition that was brought to the sport. Perhaps the effect also brought money into the industry in terms of research and development or sales or sponsorship, etc, which might have accelerated somewhat during that time period. People will have to be comfortable with the fact that this effect had both positive and negative outcomes at different points of time, and the best we can do is move forward in a positive way. KH is (jr program), and though he may not like being mentioned in the same sentence, so is Jared Bunde (track stars). Both persons doing something positive and giving back to the sport that they love in a way they seem fit. People evolve as well. Someone who may have become interested in the sport and naively watched Lance win races in awe years ago, might be a seasoned bike racer in the years since with a realistic view of what went on in the sport at the time. Just my two cents.
KH
Jared contributes to the recycle-a-bike program as well.
Rinieri Bushing
Ah, that explains the motor my son found in his seat tube…
Mohamed Limit Screw
Thanks to Lance, I found my inner demon.
Loic Tigweld
NYC riders/teams “Tainted Dope/r/s”
My first obvious was Jay and Frankie…
cutty
what’s a worser gateway drug–lance or track bikes?
face
no love for track all year. no mention of it. but now that bunde wins…
Remigio Dry Lube
…still no love, or interest. is that what you meant to finish with?
Face
My point was that people now make their only mention of track racing in the context of a disgraced local rider’s return. It’s a shame that it only further undermines any potential local interest in that part of the sport. For people trying to make more of track racing in the city, it must he frustrating.
Andy Shen
There’s a ‘submit’ button on the upper left there. You can post pictures, race reports, whatever. You can be our ‘track correspondent’.
Face
Andy, I was not complaining about a lack of coverage on the website. Simply noting the local attitude about track in general.
Aurelien Axle
Face meet ass.
Prensky rules! he’s the only track racer in the city mixing it up in T-Town with the PROs. Bunde races still?
Lu lu Fastcakes
Prensky is a bad ass. That dood can RAAAACCEEE!!! And he’s FAAAASSSTTTTT!
Matteo Dropout
…i’m only one of the many great unwashed who are firmly in your corner, as regards both of your recent situations…
…& like you, i’m an old time cycling recalcitrant who has & will always appreciate the joy that cycling can bring…
…stay strong, sir, & get back to health…you have many miles waiting to role under your wheels…
…from the heart, with love, bgw (bikesgonewild)…
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eff you, armstrong, you cancer-lover.
getting kind of old. We all get it. those on this site who actually follow pro cycling know whats up. Those not in the know of how pro cycling operated in the 80s-90s and today will see Lance for only the fundraising and inspiration he has provided. Maybe its time to move on and let the Feds sort it out.
you have to wonder if a site like this would even exist if it were not for LA and the hype he brought to US cycling in the late 90s early 2000s… For better or worse.
I liked bikes before Lance came around—hard to believe, I know…
But did the rest of us? Guessing some did but not enough to support all these cycling sites, coaches, bike shops, races etc. Fact is, the guy helped elevate cycling here in the states to the next level and some.
True, Lance did elevate it, but he did it by deciding to mimic what he thought was “The Euro Way”, i.e. “they are all on something and we can’t compete without taking stuff”; and then expecting his teammates to “act professionally” also. Seems like the Lance elevator goes straight to the doping floor.
…bad asses…how ironic is it that geeky, “space case” & befuddled looking andy schleck, who we make fun of for various reasons, can ramp it up on a bicycle & no matter how fit, macho or “bad ass” any one posting here thinks they are, well, mrs schleck’s youngest son can kick your ass all day long, out on the road…
…just sayin’…
…& sayin’ it with love, bgw…
andy schleck would squeal like a frightened little baby pig descending harlem hill in the rain.
Moved to Off Topic
…to charles pelkey & i hope things went well on tuesday…
…beyond that, business as usual @ toto & thank the cycling gods for that…
…with laughter, love, bgw…
Matteo Dropout, thank you for the good wishes. I get another round of surgery on Thursday. Radiation, chemo and whatever to follow. Prognosis is good, though
Mr. Pelkey, godspeed on your recovery.
I liked bikes pre-Armstrong too. We’re not in this for the money, so this site would exist with or without him.
Also, your logic seems to say that if someone’s a dick a couple of times you should call him on it, but if he’s a colossal douche you should just let it go.
You have responded to my argument by shifting the focus to Lance and his doping. That is not my point. He brought millions to the industry directly or indirectly by way of new sponsors, riders, and increased R&D budgets for all bike related companies. This all trickled down to guys like you, coaches, local teams, shops and races. You wonder if a team like Garmin would exist if it were not for the Postal days bringing so many new fans and cyclists to the industry. Its hard to measure but the guy has had a huge impact on cycling. Whether he was a fake, cheat whatever is an entirely different topic.
I am not a Lance Fan but I recognize the positives he has brought to the industry. Also, my example of your site existing was more hypothetical. While you may not do this for the money, there are many industry types at your level that do this “for the money” – all these local coaches, online retailers, high end mechanics and endless local racing etc.
Well, not really. How can you laud a guy for bringing people to the sport and refuse to scrutinize the person who is bringing people to the sport? That’s like saying Stalin really helped a lot of Russians relocate.
Take the original statement and replace LA with Lemond, replace late 90s & 2000s with late 80s to early 90s. True, Lance raised cycling interest another level or two above what Lemond did, there’s no denying that. And the ‘trickle down’ is probably way beyond that. ‘Hype’ was a great choice of word, btw. But we’re still talking about the margins: so cycling has risen above the popularity of skeet shooting! Awesome! Look out bowling, you’re next!!
When I first got interested in cycling it was the ‘Lemond era’ but I was also a fan of other ‘Euro’ racers, the whole sport, really. And of course I was well aware that doping was rampant back then (and still with us today) but didn’t let it ruin the beauty of the sport for me.
For me and maybe others it isn’t necessarily that Lance doped – that might make him more of a tragic figure – but the fact that he turned it into a cottage industry of sorts and ‘strong-armed’ (get it?) many from his generation of American racers into it as well. Also that these aggressive tactics continue to this day.
I agree with most of what you say but still believe much good has come from Lance being in the sport and winning his 7 Tours. Thanks for the friendly debate. I think if you focus on the avid racer who was into the sport pre – lance your points are all very well taken. If you focus on the family and weekend warrior who does the weekly club ride and spends an average of $1-$2k a year on cycling now – that is the benefit.
Now we’re triple teaming you. You seem to take as a given that it’s a good thing that a lot of people got to line their pockets. Is it a good thing that Carmichael has a coaching business but bought the silence of juniors he doped without their knowledge? Is it a good thing that John Burke sold a lot of bikes but had to help smear Greg LeMond’s reputation to do so?
I don’t want to sound preachy here, but I’ve been in the bike shop biz for 25 years now. Although Lance, et al has had some influence on the small details of product. He has had very little attributable influence on the total number of bikes sold or total business revenue in the bike industry as a whole. Before, during and after Lance, LBS’s sold appox. the same number of bikes. The prices have gone up and the technology has grown faster, but the number of units has pretty much stayed the same since the late 80’s when I got my first bike shop job.
The ferris wheel shown in 3rd frame is no longer in Paris. It’s been transferred to Birmingham, England (of which it is arguably the least ugly man-made structure). So even there Cav would have a head start on the Schlecks!
I am waiving the white flag so to speak as you have all made very fine points. Thanks again for the light hearted debate as you have made me rethink my position. Finally, if there is hard data showing the industry as a whole has not grown more than the standard inflationary increase during the Lance Era and on, then my position will seriously change on Lance. Also, my point earlier on industry growth was more focused on the trickle down effect – Not Trek, Carmichel etc. but more guys like local coaches, additional racing available and sponsors for small Cat1-3 teams etc. Again, you all make fine points and I surrender.
“Stay classy” from the guy who has made second career out of character assisnation– Lance is truly the king of all sociopaths–he has no idea how psycho he really is.
The TV car that took out the cyclist was a Citroen.
Douchey is as douchey does…
What a beautiful and swank area to have a BAAS Dr.
I’m sure they have lots of overweight women too.
Just saw this… mechanic badge FAIL at 0:33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inxqIa8jgA4&feature=related
That commericial is great!
was it not une voiture skoda that took out Flecha/Hoogerlands? Now that would be a funny Toto…
Isn’t it odd that the cyber-attack reported today should included among its many targets the IOC and *WADA*?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/04/technology/security-firm-identifies-global-cyber-spying.html?_r=1&hp
Doping is a symptom of the fact that national and regional accomplishment in sports have always gone hand in hand with massive symbolic and actual global capital. LA is merely another, and extremely effective, tool (both senses of the word) in this apparatus; McQuaid a ruthless and corrupt enabler; etc. Of course, LA too is the supremo douche.
… that the sport of cycling in America has grown in it’s overall capacity over the past 10-15 years. It does encompass a broader spectrum then it did 20-30 years ago. I just don’t think that much of it can be directly attributed to Lance. If there had been no LA, then someone or something else would have been the “Guy responsible for the growth”
Thanks for the civil debate, Bobke, very nice for a change.
http://www.bicycleretailer.com/post-296/lance-again
I raced against Frankie, Mike McCarthy, George H, and Erin Hartwell as a kid. There was no Lance. There was Lemond, and I was in awe of him.. Because of that privilege, I help juniors now. Because of Lance, I want to give up. I’ve had kids straight up ask me if they’ll need to dope to be competitive. Like Lance.
Greshman’s Law at work.
So “Bobke.” you care about the sport as a sport, or about the number of Fred$ willing to put in their pocket change to the sport?
And in the same vein, do you care about actual dollars in actual cancer research, about cancer as cancer, not cancer as human shield against all criticism and false hope that crushes the dying? I speak from experience.
How many relatives have you lost to cancer? I count five.
I suggest you read some Dostoevsky.
It’s been a good discussion. I’d rely on Sensei numbers on total bikes sold, but I think more people watched the Tour because of Lance—and his effect on the Trek company was very big.
Not to forget the pernicious effect on our governing bodies. Lance truly helped raise the bar from the ballot box stuffing days of Maltese and Toefield.
Thanks – you count 5. I count my mother at 49, Aunt at 59, grandparents, friends etc and many still fighting the fight. My list is at a point where I stopped counting. Thanks again all.
Of course it’s Gresham’s Law, not Greshman.
Bad spelling drives out the good.
where did all this civility come from? well done folks.
Now LA can do the Leadville race and better Levi’s course record. You have to believe Lance did not dig having Levi better him, even in a MT Bike race.
http://singletrack.competitor.com/2011/07/video/video-lance-armstrong-wins-alpine-odyssey-leadville-qualifier_19120
Watching the video, I’d say he doped to win that race too.
is racing Leadville based on his post race interview.
Also, I’ll happily concede that the Armstrong era brought people and money into the sport. Are these the people we want? If Wiesel offered me x thousand dollars for my team, could I take it? I’m supposed to go for a bike ride with Steve Johnson, do I? Maybe it’s not Dostoevsky but Camus’ Le Peste that’s the reference. Plague with a human face. Life is morally complex enough, I don’t expect sport to be different, but I don’t expect it to be worse. I don’t appreciate helping sustain as psychopath as a hero just for the sake of my LBS or so that my club can function normally within the governing system.
Dudes should all go for a ride on some dirt, smoke some weed and relax a little… Just sayin’
Thanks KH for citing my favorite book. The human condition is one of existence and survival to a degree and I agree, supporting LA – a definite bad guy, is no ones goal in the cycling industry (at least mine). However, the only point that I will not concede 100%, is that his hype and the money it brought to the industry small or large has had some trickle down effects on small industry business. If that allows the bike mechanic to pay his bills and feed is children – to survive, then I am ok with that. Unfortunately, after reviewing my position and hearing all your points, I am not so sure Lance has helped in this regard,. So sadly, I am 99% on your side of this argument. Please stop arguing with yourself … ;).
Thanks to Lance, I made lots of money shorting Pfizer and Amgen during his TDF-winning years.
Way to go, bro!
Of course this isn’t even getting into the issue of what will happen to a lot of these ‘Lance fans’ as it becomes even more blatantly obvious that he doped, coerced and bullied others, bribed officials and *gasp* might’ve used at least a small portion of the ‘yellow bracelet’ money for this.
No question he helped to corrupt the sport. Possibly even worse than it was back in the ‘dirty old days’…
The truth is that any sport deserves fans who love the sport for itself, not just people worshiping one individual’s cult of personality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xxgRUyzgs0
I was going to apologize for the Mao/ Living Color reference, but someone did me one better. Props.
but is what it is:
(I got lured into this conversation because you were all having a nice, civilized, intelligent discussion. I’m sure that aberration will quickly self-correct momentarily.)
I was born in rural Alabama in 1976. I don’t think you could’ve found 5 people you’d consider even recreational cyclists (tight pants, drop bars, skinny tires, whatever) within 100 miles of my home. My first awareness of cycling as a sport was seeing Lemond on ABC WWOS on Sunday afternoons. I was fascinated and read the SI articles about him when I could find them in the local library. I got into BMX bikes and bought my first real bike in the early 90s… I went on a some group rides, watched the Tour Dupont and TdF highlights on TV when I could find them… but I stopped riding and didn’t follow the sport at the pro level at all until 1999.
Lance brought me back into the sport. It was my interest in him that first led me to VeloNews. VN led me to Pez, to CN, to DailyPeloton, to BKW, to DrunkCyclist… and ultimately, through a bizarre sausage-and cheese-flavored internet wormhole, to Toto and NYVelocity.
And yeah, my mom’s diagnosis with stage IV breast cancer in 2004 probably played a role as well.
I’m now a cat 3 racer on a team that I founded. I ride thousands of miles a year, and spend thousands of dollars a year, on bike crap I don’t need. I race road bikes, mountain bikes, and cross bikes, in crits, road races, endurance races, gravel grinders, Super-Ds, and TTs, pretty much year round. I get up at 6 a.m. to watch pirated feeds of mid-week Euro-semi-classics on Sporza. I plan vacations, and my marriage, and my career, around bike races. I am, in almost every respect, an incurable bike junkie.
And I can honestly say I don’t think I’d have whatever you’d call this bizarre addiction if not for Lance. Love him (I do), hate him (I REALLY do), whatever, but you have to give him, and the phenomenon that he became, some credit to drawing me–and maybe some other people like me–into the sport.
Last anecdote: I rode a century in North Alabama Sunday. Of the 300 or so fredly participants, I bet (conservatively) that 75% had some item on their kit, their bike, their car, or all 3 that identified them, in some way, with Lance or Livestrong.
(yeah yeah yeah — tl,dr)
Greg Olsen got me into this sport, not Lance.
You just argued my entire position. Thanks, I agree – just a bit less after my discussion with Dan eta al today. Now get ready for it… Oh and Mr. H, your arguments are too intelligent for me an I am guessing most of the readers on this board ;).
I want to par-tay like it’s nine-teen ninety nine.
as well as quite a few of my high school friends, one of which also still races. There is no doubt Lance has helped the sport and industry.
because of Toto.
Civility to Mengoni..
I got into fearing downhills thanks to Andy Schleck.
You guys should ask JV if you can do a Dekker interview. I’d like to read that.
i got into being aware of cancer because of lance
I got cancer because of doping.
back to normal…
most likely. did not want to lose to a 45 year old local again
I got into beef tapas because of Alberto Contador.
I don’t believe anyone when the say “I’m not a Lance fan, but…”
maybe this was covered already, but I wonder if Bunde Druggie winning natz again, could have “corrected” his ways by inviting KH to the podium…just saying…like since he stole that experience the first time around…and don’t all druggies worship LA for the way he manipulated the system to the NNNth degree???
I started furiously typing my (civil) point of view on the topic being discussed when I remembered coming across the blog post referenced in the link below.
http://orrellparkrouleur.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/leave-me-in-peace-everybody-takes-dope/
“Leave me in peace, everybody takes dope.” Jacques Anquetil
Jared is not in my age group and took nothing from me.
However, in my opinion he disgraced the jersey that year so I only wore it a couple of times.
Doping masters are deeply pathetic. I can’t fathom what crippled egos they must have, what convoluted self justifications the have to generate, or what meager satisfactions they gain from beating up on people with children, aging parents, and full time jobs. I also can’t fathom how being between 30-34 constitutes being a master.
not to mention the health risks
Don’t what Jared y’all are talking about, but Jared the Subway Guy has provided dignity and honor to the otherwise plebian turkey sub on wheat for millions of lard asses worldwide.
i got into pink boxes thanks to mmaiko
i got into pink boxes and wine thanks to JV
i got into mute listening to bobke
hey Maxime Nipple, didn’t he serve his ban? STFU already. do you also stand outside prisons and wait for people to get released so you can harass them as well? how much atonement is required, who is the judge of that? love that link btw. i always ask the same thing, what about merckx and anquetil and coppi etc, why do they get a pass from everyone?
ken and his high horse fathoming to mengoni.
Right on. Not sure if I have more contempt for dopers or moralizers
Opinions are like arseholes…everybody has one and they usually stink.
Stinky arseholes to Mengoni.
NYC Super Team
If Real NYC All Stars could, would, should form to enter “Big Leagues” racing…
(no dopers or moralizers, or sympathizers, or thigh masters, please)
Here’s my top definite maybe’s, in no particular order:
Jermaine
Ricky
Savory
Loehner
The first three wouldn’t be able to finish a real race
Savory NO!
Olsen yes, he’s so PRO
Yo Benjamin Clamp — Bunde may have served his 2 year suspension, but his reputation is tarnished forever, especially since he lied about it after being caught. “How much atonement is necessary?” Come clean. Tell us about why he did it. And even more importantly tell us who else is doping. merckx and anquetil and coppi get a pass because they all admitted to doping. Bunde lied and then went silent.
Late to the show.
I rode because I like to ride and bought a bike because of that and keep buying them for the same reason. Who is so lame they ride because they saw so an so win a race? Don’t think those people will keep doing it long, as its been proven. The regular group rides I see the same faces and did see an increase in those random dudes who no longer ride after a season or month due to them using someone else to spur them on to do something. The new riders who stick with it usually are totally oblivious to pro racing and its intricacies or at least don’t talk about it as much as the, well old timers. Not that we’re old or they are young or vice versa.
Did anyone ever think the increase in population might of had something to do with an increase in bike sales? I think DUI laws have also helped, what do you think those DUI people that are caught get around with? Just some factors to consider.
If it was truly a Lance factor that increased sales the moment he’s busted we should see a reverse spike in sales, right?
Keeping my fingers crossed so my next bike will be that much cheaper! Yet another reason to want him busted for his arrogance and well doping.
I doubt any significant number of persons had become a bike racer or cyclist simply because of one professional athlete. It’s more likely that a combination of factors influenced someone to get into the sport or to rediscover cycling since most people rode bikes as a youth. There is most likely a “lance effect” of a certain amount of hype and recognition that was brought to the sport. Perhaps the effect also brought money into the industry in terms of research and development or sales or sponsorship, etc, which might have accelerated somewhat during that time period. People will have to be comfortable with the fact that this effect had both positive and negative outcomes at different points of time, and the best we can do is move forward in a positive way. KH is (jr program), and though he may not like being mentioned in the same sentence, so is Jared Bunde (track stars). Both persons doing something positive and giving back to the sport that they love in a way they seem fit. People evolve as well. Someone who may have become interested in the sport and naively watched Lance win races in awe years ago, might be a seasoned bike racer in the years since with a realistic view of what went on in the sport at the time. Just my two cents.
Jared contributes to the recycle-a-bike program as well.
Ah, that explains the motor my son found in his seat tube…
Thanks to Lance, I found my inner demon.
NYC riders/teams “Tainted Dope/r/s”
My first obvious was Jay and Frankie…
what’s a worser gateway drug–lance or track bikes?
no love for track all year. no mention of it. but now that bunde wins…
…still no love, or interest. is that what you meant to finish with?
My point was that people now make their only mention of track racing in the context of a disgraced local rider’s return. It’s a shame that it only further undermines any potential local interest in that part of the sport. For people trying to make more of track racing in the city, it must he frustrating.
There’s a ‘submit’ button on the upper left there. You can post pictures, race reports, whatever. You can be our ‘track correspondent’.
Andy, I was not complaining about a lack of coverage on the website. Simply noting the local attitude about track in general.
Face meet ass.
Prensky rules! he’s the only track racer in the city mixing it up in T-Town with the PROs. Bunde races still?
Prensky is a bad ass. That dood can RAAAACCEEE!!! And he’s FAAAASSSTTTTT!
…i’m only one of the many great unwashed who are firmly in your corner, as regards both of your recent situations…
…& like you, i’m an old time cycling recalcitrant who has & will always appreciate the joy that cycling can bring…
…stay strong, sir, & get back to health…you have many miles waiting to role under your wheels…
…from the heart, with love, bgw (bikesgonewild)…