Is there such thing as a strong B field. That’s an oxymoron.

So the Jim Boyd series starts off as a ranking system and is now actually a goal of some riders and teams (see the recent Schmalz post). Great…

PS to prove I’m not just a hater: I heard David Wiswell of Sakonnet is going pro. Major props to him.

Christophe, check your inbox.

Congrats to Prinsloo on a gutsy solo break. There were plenty of teams there with numbers – not a question of field strength, but perhaps one of team disorganization/apathy.

Death to bitter haters.

yeah, the pace was slower than norm. only a few of guys doing any of the work in the front. congrats to prinsloo for the clairvoyant read, and follow through.

How many B races you win, Toni?

Does A mean @ss? A win is a win so long as there are more than 2 guys in the field. To win by over a minute means either someone is very strong or 35 guys are asleep at the wheel.

Kim got swallowed up before the finish. an axis was 3rd

Hey Toni, why you have to be such an a-hole? I challenge you to race a B race and see how well you do. I bet you’d get worked over pretty hard by OrgA, Adler etc.

Thanks guys, I was not aware that Mo-Lo will be team-mates, so I was a bit confused when Lo attacked on Harlem Hill and Motor didn’t want to chase. I was dropped on Tavern and swallowed by the pack 100 yards from the finish line, but it was well worth the try.

Chuck Norris once signed up for a B race but they had to merge A and B fields when Chuck round house kicked all of the B’s at the starting line. Then he got in a break away and won the sprint in a 55×10 by a lot. He had enough time to get off and round hosue kick the rest of his breakaway companions. He wasn’t wearing a helmet.

Hey Toni, I assume by "I’ll have to stay with the big boys" you mean guys like Jeff King.

Has anyone else noticed that those potholes in the park over by Park Ave. West are the same shape as Chuck Norris’ fist? Chuck made those when when some B racer tried to ask him what his watts were when he was sprinting in his 55×10. He was so mad that he put his frame pump (which Chuck only has to pump once to get to 120psi) in the B’s spokes then smashed the pavement with his fist when he realized that he should have smashed the B racer before he did that thing with the frame pump.

I’m not a bitter hater, I’m just saying. If there are 65 guys in the A race, 1st place in the Bs counts for 66th place. Am I wrong? I thought that’s what everybody thought.

Compare the times and average speed of the top B and top A riders before you make any judgement, and also know that group dynamics will work to the effect that many strong Bs will finish strongly in the A pack; and vice versa, As racing in a B race (allowed) migt win or finish strongly in the front but go slower than had they been in the A race. There is no guarantee that they would win with 1+ minutes on the Bs. Anyone who can finish a B race with over a minute on the pack could prob finish well in an A race (this is why we have upgrades: we were all C racers at some point, right?). So I doubt the sitation would be aking to 65 A racers then the top B guy coming in 66th. That’s unreasonable (or in more polite language, idiotic).

"To be strong enough to upgrade 4 to 3 these days you need to be better than the average 3 to get the upgrade." WTF? Why the constant kvetching about how hard it is to upgrade "these days". Was it easier when you upgraded from 4 to 3 the first time back in the "old days"? Talk about not knowing what your talking about.

And for the record, very few Bs do anything in the As for a year or more. There is a big difference.

i can’t count how many times i’ve seen the motor dragging a breakaway around. does anyone else ever take a pull?

some b race winners from 04 and 05: Loudon, Rifflemacher, Auth, Huppert, O’Reilly, Lowe, Sherry, Gulla. There aren’t 45 a riders better than most of those guys.

TH-

Why would someone be so dumb as to pull when he knows Motor will be happy to?

yep – very true WN. i can’t help but to think he could win a lot more with a change in tactics. but whatever, it’s not like i’ll have to worry about pulling him around anytime soon. 🙂

Toni, please. I assume you realize that no-one is suggesting that the B field as a whole is faster than the A’s. The point made was simply that the top B riders are competitive immediately in the As (not actually winning per se, but well within the top third), and out of town, the new 3 upgraders typically are in the top quartile in the 3s – sometimes podiuming right away. Thats why the Will Rifs, Thors, Auths etc just move right up. And there are more of them right behind entering the B’s each season.

I would add that its tough to see this dynamic clearly in CP, as obviously its hard for ANY A (new or old) to beat Motor/Sherry/Axis/Sakonnet riders (generally Cat 2s), or to beat Lowe/King et al in a sprint. But stick the A/B fields together at Bear Mtn and youd find the top 10 B’s would be mixed in somewhere in the top third of the combined pack. Dont believe this? Look at the Bear results from the 4’s that raced up. Proof in the pudding my friend. Remember, the bulk of the A field is still just Cat 3, and many of them not in the best shape of their lives at any given race. You can’t suggest that 75% of the A field would beat the best couple of Bs in a hard race. Thats just ignorant and belies the actual results in recent years.

Yeah, Lee3, what’s up with that?

That’s a different issue. Yes, there are guys who are racing Bs and ahouldn’t be. i.e. the guys who are just blowing through. But that doesn’t mean that B racing is at a level close to A racing. Kim was destroying the Bs and he hasn’t really placed all year in the As. (yes he is a very good racer, better than me and most As) But don’t get me started on Tailights who won some B races and started talking smack in the As before he got dropped a few times. Let’s be honest folks,

1. B racing is not close to A racing.

2. Cat 4 racing is not harder than it used to be

3. Yes, winning a B race means you will be competative in the As but it is harder

4. Lee3 doesn’t know anything about A racing

I want to hear from some people that have made the jump this year. They are the only ones who can really talk about it. Ugli? Kim?

"If you say it out load is sounds more idioic."

I will be strong and resist the temptation. Resist. Resist.

Did Caryl race Unionvale in the past? Or other hilly races? Do you know?

Toni already declined the B race challenge (see below). Heard no response regarding a 1 on 1 challenge. Still waiting–sound of crickets in background.

This year was my first for UnionVale and I didnt see Ricky Lowe lining up for this. I dont know if CG was there last year. She was there this year and I thought she was noticeably thinner. She lined up for the Tour Of Christiana and finished 15th out of 40+ riders on Stg. 1 of a friggen tough course that was definitely not crit friendly and also did Green Mtn. a coined "climbers race".

Is it just not cool to have discourse about a female NYC racer on this site? I often wonder why that is. Now I know why – ya just get attacked by angry women or men or whoever.

For the record – you heard it here first – next season CG will be climbing with the cats @ the out of towners. Mark my words. So….lets talk more about A fld. B fld. stuff (yawn)!

Toni? Toni?

Come back Toni!!

(ever feel like you could untype something?)

I believe Mo introduced me to her back in 03′ maybe it was 02′ – briefly. She’s got a rep for being a good sprinter and so great we all understand the fitness is there as you’ve established with your 7 year old pics. I’m just going by my visual memory from 02′ and I think she shaved a little muscle mass, which makes me wonder if she’s making changes to the program – period. never wrote anything about races, weight loss or whatever. Just an honest cycling question on a talented rider. Baden Cooke went through the same metamorphosis. If you look @ him when he was winning sprints in, I believe 03′ to what he did with his training for 04′ Td suisse, you’ll see noticeable differences in his physique. I wasnt following Baden cooke for 7 years but I can still make the observation. no?

Take a deep breath and put down the hate.

We are all just a bunch of snippy, snotty, dicks, aren’t we?

Toni = Todd + CRCA membership

Forgot to say that Clay is missing the point. If he went out and dropped me in the park would that prove that B racing is the highest level in the park or that it is equal? Better to ask you Clay, if you are so strong, why are you a B?

Best person to draft behind?

King

Gale

Ricky

Motor

other

Worst?

K-Mo

So there

Inson

other

Best Kit?

Axis

VB

Blue Ribbon

Adler

Other

Worst?

ML

Bandit

OA

other

For or Against?

Cat 4s in the A field

Term limits on club board

Nut-free bakeries

Nut-free bike clubs

Experience matters. Take a cagey guy like Zoltan. He’s probably done more races, across disciplines, than the total races combined of almost the entire B field.

Your right Toni, the only thing dropping you in the park would prove is that you suck.

overrated: "Evil" Howard

underrated: Doug O’Neil

This issue can only be resolved one way: Dance-off!

Heard you’ve got a killer backspin and can pop’n’lock with the best of ’em.

Lee3 – you in?

I wouldn’t enter a dance off with Lee3. He’d tell me I was fat then try to hump my butt. That’s a fools game.

wow!

Who is Toni and who does he ride for? Photo link?

So do you have to do NRC races before it "means" anything? Or the Tour de France?

That was an excellent post, Kim. thanks!

Toni is not my real name. I assume "Where’s Toni?" isn’t your real name either.

So good to see that old-school flaming is back, I was worried that the site had gone soft. There are even two different strands going at the same time, complete with reference to tail-lights and other classic flames. We need to compile a classic flames article.

Toni – I am your father.

Two vegans (Jack + another) and some vegetarians. Jack did confess that he makes exceptions on first dates because otherwise they sometimes don’t become second dates. Some of us only eat chicken, beef, pork, fish and sometimes horse, but only in France and only if we don’t know about it.

I think he proved he belongs in the A’s, no?

Yes Lee3,

He does have a carbon lugged Calfee with bamboo tubes…. for real. Smilie fit him on it yesterday in SF.

I have not competed in a special olympics but I suppose it could be a little like riding in a B race?

Toni-

Your a moron, egomaniac and probably a crappy bike racer. And you picked a girl’s name for your psudonym.

I will bet my 7 top 10s in the Bs this season against your top 20s in the As (if that’s even true) this season any day of the week. My offer stansd. Name a time and a place and I will prove you suck.

How are you going to "bet" your placings against Toni’s? Presumably you’re moving to the A field next year, so we can compare you two in an A race or other local 1-2-3 event.

can’t we just agree that we all suck and be ok with it??? b/c little known fact, we do..very much so.

Top ten Boyd B’s v Top ten Boyd A’s. No team kit, all wear the CRCA kit.

I want to see Clay and Toni duke it out on the leg press machine.

As a professional coach here in New York, I have a unique perspective on the A vs. B discussion since I have both as clients. While I don’t agree with Toni’s view that all A’s are better than all B’s, there are some fundamental differences. I don’t test everybody in the lab, but of the VO2 testing I’ve done, most A’s are about 10 ml/min/kg higher than B’s (low 60’s to low 50’s). As we know, VO2 is the ultimate predictor of potential, so it is no surprise that the A’s are that much better. And watts are about 20 higher at all the benchmark levels (tempo, LT, max) I find that A’s also have more of what I like to call "souplesse" – that’s french for supple – muscles that are soft and fluid, and not tough and tight on the bike. This comes from years and years on the bike. Also, most A’s are close to fulltime riders and don’t spend as much time cramped up or sitting at a desk which is horrible for the legs. In terms of determination, I’d give it to the B’s though. My service has multiple fee levels, and I find that more of my top level clients are B’s – they just want it more and they work really hard with me to achieve their goals in cycling and in life. Those are my 2 cents.

As a professional coach here in New York, I have a unique perspective on the A vs. B discussion since I have both as clients. While I don’t agree with Toni’s view that all A’s are better than all B’s, there are some fundamental differences. I don’t test everybody in the lab, but of the VO2 testing I’ve done, most A’s are about 10 ml/min/kg higher than B’s (low 60’s to low 50’s). As we know, VO2 is the ultimate predictor of potential, so it is no surprise that the A’s are that much better. And watts are about 20 higher at all the benchmark levels (tempo, LT, max) I find that A’s also have more of what I like to call "souplesse" – that’s french for supple – muscles that are soft and fluid, and not tough and tight on the bike. This comes from years and years on the bike. Also, most A’s are close to fulltime riders and don’t spend as much time cramped up or sitting at a desk which is horrible for the legs. In terms of determination, I’d give it to the B’s though. My service has multiple fee levels, and I find that more of my top level clients are B’s – they just want it more and they work really hard with me to achieve their goals in cycling and in life. Those are my 2 cents.

As a professional coach here in New York, I have a unique perspective on the A vs. B discussion since I have both as clients. While I don’t agree with Toni’s view that all A’s are better than all B’s, there are some fundamental differences. I don’t test everybody in the lab, but of the VO2 testing I’ve done, most A’s are about 10 ml/min/kg higher than B’s (low 60’s to low 50’s). As we know, VO2 is the ultimate predictor of potential, so it is no surprise that the A’s are that much better. And watts are about 20 higher at all the benchmark levels (tempo, LT, max) I find that A’s also have more of what I like to call "souplesse" – that’s french for supple – muscles that are soft and fluid, and not tough and tight on the bike. This comes from years and years on the bike. Also, most A’s are close to fulltime riders and don’t spend as much time cramped up or sitting at a desk which is horrible for the legs. In terms of determination, I’d give it to the B’s though. My service has multiple fee levels, and I find that more of my top level clients are B’s – they just want it more and they work really hard with me to achieve their goals in cycling and in life. Those are my 2 cents.

Toni, what you said you said. Only way out for you now is to join the top 10 Boyd A’s, we’ll call it top 10 Boyd A’s and Toni against the top 10 Boyd B’s

I’ve found that masters riders are better at avoiding fringale, though they are more likely than younger riders to succumb to what we call "la crise de foie."

Oi! Gevalt! What’s all this Mishegoss? We got a real Pilpul going on here. What a bunch of the malicious plotka-machers. The A’s are all Koorvahs, The B’s are a pack of shmendriks, and they C’s, oi, a pack of Shnooks.

Why doesn’t CRCA organize a combined-field-club-race next year only for the sub-teams — ML, OA, Foundation, MT, Sakonnet, Adler, NYVC, Edgemont, Metro, etc all in one race…Motor, Toni, Zoltan, Riseth, Ricky, and Sherry from A racing with the likes of O’Malley, Mecray, Gipp and the bunch. Make it 7 laps, up to 9 riders per team, no solo-bumble bee riders and Cat 4 or above only. See if the predominantly B field team guys will really get dropped and beaten by the A field teams the way Toni seems to think. I think we will see that there will be many A riders significantly stronger, but some of the B riders will be able to hold their own. There will be many A riders who will finish behind the top 10 B rider finishes. I am sure the team tactics will also play a role, and isn’t that part of the fun?

Get your own club Morans.

Or Ric Stagg will CUT YOU.

Buddy, your idea to run a race combined is lame for a number of reasons. First, no-one would expect the B’s to beat the Cat 2s from breaks or the A sprinters, so the "who will win" question is not an issue here. Second, we already KNOW that any good B’s who upgrade can not only race well in A’s, but even get top 10’s quickly (OK, not top 5 so much, but top 10 yes – see Brown, Ugli et al for recent examples). We dont need a race to prove the point – its already proven! Finally, any racer knows that beyond the top 10 or so, no-one is actually racing to the line in the final meters, so how many B’s beat A’s is irrelevant – are we trying to encourage some crazy mass sprint of 100 riders? I dont think so. Toni is just wrong in his premise and doesnt realize or understand that the back half of the A field Cat 3’s generally isnt measurably fitter than the front fifth or so of the B’s mid-season, basically due to variable fitness of those who upgraded years ago vs. those killing themselves now for the upgrade. We dont really see this as clearly in CP since these guys arent all sprinting to the line each week in the mid pack, but its starkly apparent in the out of town races, where recent upgrades to 3 almost invariably finish in the top half of the Cat 3 races right away – they are in peak form at that point (not to ultimate potential, but vs personal history) and racing against a lot of riders coasting on fitness gained 1-5 years ago when they upgraded. They dont necessarily podium right away in Cat 3 races (they do sometimes like Olsen at Bear!), but they compete easily. Toni, check out the results pages, my man. Its right there to see…

Earth, you’re going DOWN!

YIKES!

Well, no one ever accused me of being "quick minded", and I do have a rather pronounced forehead…

Oh, and slamming Zoltan and Sherry for lack of results is pathetic and sad. Go play in another sandbox, hater!

Clay. You may be real. But Toni is playing a jedi mind trick on your stupid cat 4 brain. Get over it. You suck.

Thank you for the helpfuls posts on Vo2. Nice to see someone put something useful on this string.

Feel free to post more stuff like this as there are people out there that find it beneficial.

Weak B field? Where do you get that from? Check the lap times against other CRCA B races and you will see it is far from the slowest.

Toni, yes there is such a thing as a strong B field. That is why we need to give the A’s a 2 minute gap at the start. On some days the B field would catch the A’s.

Yes. When the A field slowed down because a 10 man break was up the road with every team represented.

Just look at lap times over the course of the season (including last weekend). The A field is always significantly faster than the B’s. This discussion is so fucking stupid I can’t stand it. All you little fucking pussy B’s shut the fuck up already. Winy beatches.

yea…there’s some truth to that. When the A field break has the perfect potion represented (ala the strong teams have guys up the road), its not to uncommon that the main field A gets caught by the B’s. Lap times of the A break are markedly faster than the B main field and marginally quicker than the B break. The lap time #’s dont lie. I have no qualms with backing the notion that a 4 could sit in on an A field break and contribute, as we’ve witnessed this past wkend.

if you’re not up front, then you’re doing a third less work. so why is it so hard to understand that an out of shape cat 3 sitting in could get beaten by a rising cat 4? btw, the women in both fields seemed to be having no problem sitting in this past weekend.

"winy" is correctly spelled "whiny" you dumb fuck A.

thanks. here’s another one:

hey mastorganic CP dude, spend less time on your bike and more time in a dictionary. your spelling SUCKS!

Alex, to be fare, if all the strong B’s of the season was in the race, no way I put 30 seconds a lap on them. Toni, we’ll beat you any day, but there is no way we will dominate an A race or even stay in the breaks. What Chris M said is true, the newly upgraded A’s are very strong and perform very well in both out of town and club races. Rashad, Greg, and more were Cat 5’s at the start of the season and two of them in top 3 of bear mnt cat 3. Very few cyclists can sprint with either of those two guys and I am sure they will be on the podium soon.

Now he is hitting refresh

I made my point

I made my point

Nothing posted on this page is serious. Everything (including the refresh jobs and the mispellings and the anti-B flames) is just a set up to infuriate the Bs who happen to be reading this. It is working. You guys are so worked up it is nuts. They are playing you. Don’t let them do it. Have some self respect. Turn off your computers.

Not sure why somebody is writing that. I stand by my post

Any suggestions?

You SUCK!!

You SUCK!!

Weak B field? Where do you get that from? Check the lap times against other CRCA B races and you will see it is far from the slowest.

Toni, yes there is such a thing as a strong B field. That is why we need to give the A’s a 2 minute gap at the start. On some days the B field would catch the A’s.

Looks like they made an ass of you too. Nice language.

The answer is clearly the Cs. Fewer years sitting on bike seats and noticeably fill out those sexy blue and gold shorts better than As or Bs.

My husband is going to kick your ass.

B’s have longer dicks, but A’s typically have more girth

OK, just got back from my court-appointed Community Service. Where were we?

OK, this thread is getting creepy, complete with our own site flasher and trash-talking non-cyclist wife. I think Im boycotting from now on and waiting for a thread with better karma and a clean slate. Andy, Alex? Little help here!

The B field still sucks

Last post was fake again. Guys, get your own name, stop using mine.

Sounds like you need to adjust your diet. You’re burning muscle.

Last post was fake again. Guys, get your own name, stop using mine.

Get your own fake name!

(preferably not something short for Antoinette)

Don’t take Hater or Ric will CUT YOU!

Man, You guys snowed in already? Get a life!

Is this still last weeks Hangover?