meh, that idea is just ok. anyone else care to go outside the box a little more?

In the Masters 35+ race at Fair Haven, JLo bridged up to Olsen and a Liberty Cycle rider with two other Liberty Cycle riders. (John Durso and sombody else). The 5 of them stayed away and JLo and Olsen went 3,4.

Yale graduate should be JAILED and FINED for all of the cheating he did.

USACYCLING needs to revise punishment for dopers. Two year suspension for “confessing” is bullshit! Use this clown as an example and ban him for LIFE!!!!! He should have his degree confiscated aswell, but that’ll never happen because he’s from a wealthy Yale family.

Pathetic. People need to wke up and consider the message this sends to young kids trying to train and race amidst this environment of dopers confessing and getting a paltry two year suspension!

Papp may go to jail for 10 years, but Chodroff gets an EZ pass: “In February Papp, 35, pleaded guilty in a Pennsylvania federal court to conspiracy to distribute human growth hormone and recombinant erythropoietin. He has not yet been sentenced for his violation of federal narcotic laws. He faces a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison, a fine of $500,000, or both.”

if you think the sentence papp is facing is too much, that’s another question entirely. and it may be a legitimate one – seilling EPO to athletes is a bit different from selling meth.

What are you saying about Yale? Are you saying that just because he’s Ivy League he should be punished more harshly? Go back to your cave fool!

http://www.pappy-will-pop-yourWATTS.com

http://www.joepapp.com/index.php?page=contact

….in Long Island and ride your bike!!

settle down, clowns. doping is a rule violation. like breaking the double line rule. infractions have penalties. two years is the penalty for a first time offense. back to your regularly schedule programming.

Violations of the rules that have temporary effect like EPO should get a 2 year ban. Steroids, which have permanent strengthening effects should get life.
Anyone ever banned for PAD’s though should have to submit to random testing at their own expense or else what is to stop them from using again and racing the events that don’t test.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/usa-cycling-professional-championships-cn/road-race/results

too bad Bezdek wasn’t there, so much of his team DNF’ed

OK, this is confusing cause I have done a lot of 3/4 races.
If I get 5th in a 3/4 circuit race and the 4 guys that finish ahead of me are 3’s already, do I get upgrade points for 5th place or 1st place?

That sucks.
Thank you grifter.
I guess I will stick to 4 only races until I have enough points to upgrade.
Flame away.

Do masters races count?

and as long as i’m dishing out the free advice (worth every penny):

1. listen to your elders (like JFT) and read the rulebook at least once. seriously. it’s your sport, now, understand the rules of the game:

http://www.usacycling.org/forms/USAC_rulebook.pdf

2. don’t rush out the 4s. learn to win there. you can learn a lot and make a lot of mistakes in the 4s. upgrading is not the goal, its a byproduct.

Note that the very clear explanation cited in grifter 2:09 is not found anywhere in the rulebook that is linked in the 3:32 post. I had the same question recently but was dumb enough to just read the rule book rather than google the USAC web site.

John Milton was a sandbagger

You can keep it, I’d rather serve God and ascend to my rightful place at the podium of God’s feet. I remember languishing in the 4’s for far too long. I won a few races before my upgrade, the only thing you’ll learn is that you need to be on top of the front to win the sprint.
Yes, it will be challenging after upgrading but you will be a better, faster racer.
I recently did the same 3/4 race you did and it all came back. How much I hated racing 4’s. The negative racing, slower speeds, all the whining and stupid chatter.
Upgrade asap and enjoy a quiet progressive race environment. If you’re good you’ll win/podium in any category.

Just sucks that there is not much incentive as a 3 to race 1,2,3 races if you want to upgrade becasue even if you are the first Cat3 to cross the line, it does not matter unless you are top ____ depending on race and distance.
For example, don’t you think if a Cat 3 finished 10th at Bear fall that they should get upgrade credit?
That is one reason why so may of us 3’s wanted our own race there.

“Just sucks that there is not much incentive as a 3 to race 1,2,3 races if you want to upgrade … why so may of us 3’s wanted our own race”

holy jes*s. something just sucks, alright. pls do me a favor – stop typing, take your right hand, curl it up into a fist, and punch yourself in the nuts (twice) for subjecting me to this idiocy. i swear to chr-st i just got dumber just reading that post.

let’s work through this
1. you didn’t want to race the 123s
2. because you wanted a cat 3 only race
3. so you could get upgrade points
4. which would make you a 2
5. so you could race with the 1/2/3s

i can think of a slightly easier path to #5. can you?

if you want to upgrade to race 1/2s you should be PUMPED it was a 1/2/3 you f’ckin mook. you were offered a temporary one-day upgrade on a great course. instead, though, you come here and complain. i will never cease to be amazed at what you retarded sea monkeys will whine about.

How long did it take you to write that email?
Such anger.

bravo. well said.

Three of the top ten were likely doped Dominicans.

You’re probably talking to different dudes with similar questions and different answers.
Cat 4 races suck, that is that. If you pull, you’re the only one. As soon as you pull off the paces slows again. If you attack they’ll only chase you down and resume negative racing.

No one is racing 3/4’s to upgrade to a 2. That’s an oxymoron. In your haste to judge and correct (the holier than thou road racer persona) you merged two statements from two different people to have an excuse to anonymously unleash your inner anger.

Go beat your wife instead!

That’s if you could upgrade to that..

The point about Erik Post is exactly what I am talking about
(I am not Erik Post, nor is this Erik posting)

My point was that while Erik should get upgrade points, it was still a great racing experience even if he doesn’t get the points.
A separate Cat 3 race at Bear would have been better but were there enough people for a 1/2 and a 3 race?

I hate upgrading so much I stopped trying, and just sandbag the cat1s that complain they’re not pro…racing is about winning, figure out how to do it…fitness alone willn’t help ya if you ride like a NYAC rower…better to sit in until the right moment (when they are tired and you are not), or choose races that are naturally selective that tactics are useless, (Leadville 100, or any TT)….thats what Andy does…while Dan is proud of his 3/4 FBF Tuesday Night Worlds Jersey…
and we all do to certain extent…

rare for the individual to race up…(Sean Smith, Evie, Bezdek),
most race down…(or cheat to whatever extent they can get away with: Chudruff, Bunde, DR-Mengoni-Viagra at the boarder, hematocrit obsessive/anorexia,)

WHATEVERRR!!!!

How do you but a bowling ball?
Sounds painful.

Obviously some clarification is needed here: most of us are weekend racers march to October with the odd Tuesday night at FBF thrown in. Many of us train and race to keep fit, some of us are deluded that we will one day go pro, the whiners in our midst are certifiably delusional clowns and need to re-evaluate the reason they race and train.

Sit down clown and look at your carbon fiber frame, think about why you arise at 0430hrs to climb onto a bike with lycra attached to your body and THINK – WHY AM I HERE?
What answer comes to mind?
Is it a delusion or based in reality?
Perhaps you are DESTINED to remain CAT 4 LIFE……

i thought it was time for all of us to pretend that we’re laid back, fun-loving people and go to cross races and take black and white pictures of our filthy legs and nibble on waffles and sip beer. perhaps all the amazing fun leads to a buildup of upgrade anxiety?

Stuff white people like

ParTAY at Bryn Athen babyyyyyyyyy!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100923/ap_on_sp_ot/cyc_armstrong_doping

More to the point, back in the day all 4’s were dying to get to 3, all 3’s were dying to get to 2, & once u were a 2 it meant something. With all these p123 races a 2 license has become like a glorified 3 license, as it were.

its really tough to do this as most of the time there aren’t enough riders to qualify for the large pack size needed for maximum points and often the races are too short. in other words, you are really picking at a couple of points here and there. then you are marginally qualified at best and the upgrade person has discretion to consider the quality of the races.

so, do cat 3 or 2/3 or 1/2/3 races to upgrade. wait, none of those available around here – then travel to get your 2 upgrade!!!

so if you don’t want to travel, then why do you even want to be a 2 in the first place? you can be a 3 and do every upper cat race in the city. if you want to be able to do harder/better races, which in theory would be the point of upgrading, you will be going out of town to get to them.

just place in the races you do

my problem is not with promoters, it is with usa cycling.
to not get upgrade credit for being the first one in your category to finish a race does not make sense — especially when the results page notes the placing of the categories.
it is interesting that you can have a friendly debate with fellow racers in person about the subject, but bring it up in an anonymous forum and you are an assh*le.

You are misunderstanding what it means to be good at bike racing. If the upgrade system worked the way you want it to, then you would be rewarded for merely finishing races containing higher-category riders. If you were 39th in a 1/2/3 field sprint but the 38 riders ahead of you were 1s and 2s, then you would get upgrade points as though you “won,” because you beat the other cat 3s. That makes no sense. Upgrades are intended to place riders in a suitable category for their ability, and reward riders for learning how to be successful. Finishing 39th in a 1/2/3 field sprint is not the same as winning a 3 race.

But more to the point, why would you want to upgrade to a category where you’re just going to be pack fill? Wouldn’t you rather race in a category where you can actually affect the race? Don’t you want to learn how to win a race before upgrading to a higher category?

the people who really deserve the upgrade always get it. more often than not, people who don’t deserve it will get upgraded as well. just race and have the tiniest bit of patience. upgrading you for your sweet mid-pack sprint against the rest of the cat 3’s in the field doesn’t make any sense.

Thank you for the productive debate. I would agree with you with your examples as well. Was thinking more of the 3 that finsihes top 10 in a hard out of town race like Tokeneke or Hilltowns. I suppose that this can just be part of the upgrading “discretion”.

can we get back to cussing and bike throwing?

The original dude who was asking was a 4. Somehow you asses translated that to a 3 and went to town unleashing your latent anger about nothing. You’re all a bunch of idiots arguing about NOTHING. Only an ASS would try to get results with the scenarios you mention.
It is OK to commiserate about our sport on a BIKE RACING FORUM, that’s why it was created.

*Here’s another racer with a sense of entitlement that can say/ask what the fuck I want whenever I want. And you’ll read it!

and then 9:19 rolled through, and the argument progressed, these things happen sometime, arguments change. They are organic,man, not static, don’t try to tie me down.

geez, you say we have anger. douche.

the excitability force is strong in this one.

stick a fork in it

Do not get to upset about the upgrade system, they have major issues themselves and do not even understand the rules, many people have been knocked back this year not because they do not have the results, but cause the upgraders do not understand it either.

Many promoters do not submit results to USA cycling yet have a permit from them to have the race and have usa cycling officials there to referee it, figure that out.

The argument that its costly as a promoter does not wash, you are paying to race so deserve a result no matter what it is.

You will get different responses from different upgrader’s , first off we need a system that works.

If you have a guy like sean smith who was going to quit cause he could not get upgrade from cat 5 to 4 but becomes a cat 1 months later after having to ignore local upgrader then there is a problem.

How many other guys have quit because someone knocked them back to many times but they had the talent to go much further.

Just keep hammering away and if you think you are being hard done by and you are being treated unfairly go to someone more senior and get a second opinion.

Good luck with the upgrade