Reed Albergotti and Vanessa O’Connell are the co-authors of the book Wheelmen, one of the first non-fiction books written about the rise and fall of Lance Armstrong and the US Postal team. Wheelmen has been released in paperback and the new edition features a new afterword and up to date information about the events that have occurred since the initial publication. I email talked to the two of them until they were sick of me.

schmalz You two were on the Lance story way before Wheelmen came out, why didn’t Lance just get your nosey asses fired?

Albergotti Is this a serious question? You have probably heard that story. I wish I could find the letter he wrote on livestrong.com

schmalz Of course it’s a serious one. The world wants to know why you weren’t fired, because that seemed to be the standard operating procedure for LanceCo for quite a while.

Albergotti The tension between Armstrong and me began in 2008, when I hadn’t yet written anything about doping. He knew I was digging around, but I don’t think he felt I was a potential liability until I called an ex-wife of his agent. Someone had suggested to me that she might be a good source. I didn’t receive a call back from the ex, but about 24 hours later, I got a call from a Hollywood publicist who worked for Armstrong. She was furious and cursing at me for calling the woman.

Lance Inc., as we called him and his entourage, knew that there was only one reason I’d have called that woman: To try and uncover the truth. I was focused on trying to expose his doping before his doping was widely known. I think of that as the point of no return. I knew Armstrong would do anything he could to get in the way of my reporting going forward.

O’Connell I remember that Armstrong was outraged at Reed in 2009 after Reed wrote this story on the discord between Armstrong and Greg LeMond. In fact, after that piece ran, we heard that Armstrong had called people in high positions at our employer, specifically to complain about Reed and that story. That’s also what prompted Armstrong to write a scathing letter about Reed and post it on Livestrong.com, that for-profit Web site that was a joint venture between Demand Media Inc. and the Lance Armstrong Foundation. It’s since been taken down from the Livestrong.com site.

I started covering Armstrong together with Reed in 2010, and our first big scoop was that Floyd Landis had accused him of doping.

Armstrong at that point didn’t have a history with me, and he had a problem on his hands in the form of Landis.

We were always aware of the fact that Armstrong might complain about us—even trying to get us fired—so we went out of our way to be fair to him by giving him many chances to respond and making sure we did everything we could to get his side of the story. We always knew that as long as the many stories we wrote were accurate and fair, Armstrong would have a hard time convincing our bosses to can us.

Interestingly, back then, in 2010 and even 2011, many many people did not want to read or hear what we were uncovering: that Armstrong was a doper. We got a lot of nasty emails from Armstrong fans in response to our coverage.

schmalz That sort of reaction certainly must’ve got your reporter “Spidey Sense” tingling. In hindsight, do you think the extreme reactions from Lance Inc might have been part of their undoing?

Albergotti Yeah, but you didn’t need a “Spidey Sense” to know Armstrong had cheated. Even then, before Landis’s allegations broke the whole thing open, there was enough information out there that no intellectually honest person could believe Armstrong had raced clean.

The U.S. media simply ignored all the evidence and reported a lie, and  I think those angry, threatening responses from Lance Inc. actually worked. Reporters were afraid of losing access, getting sued or attacked by an army of yellow bracelet-wearing fans. I think it’s why the lie lasted for so long, at least here in the U.S.

schmalz Ahem, I think there may have been a few pretend journalists who were after Lance. It was bad for business for cycling media to go after Lance because Lance definitely tried to make it that way. Luckily, not all of us had to make a career in cycling journalism.

I think when non-cycling media outlets started asking questions, that’s when the tables started to turn. A silly bike site saying Lance doped was one thing, but the Wall Street Journal saying it was another thing. I think that this is the point in the interview where you probably kiss Andy Shen’s butt a little bit…

O’Connell I love that you tapped into your sense of outrage, raising awareness of the doping that was going on. Hey, Andy gave a platform to Michael Ashenden way back in April 2009—complete with a chart showing vial numbers and percentage of isoforms—to help people understand the six positives from Armstrong’s ’99 Tour samples. That kind work was important because there was as you know so much misinformation out there, and that misinformation was part of the Armstrong cover up.

Oh, and of course we are fans of “As the Toto Turns,” which puts it all in perspective. Let’s face it: The undoing of Armstrong is of course a serious and sad story but some of the characters  in the drama were at times pretty ridiculous.

schmalz It’s amazing to think that Lance thought he could just keep the plates of bullshit spinning, but he did try hard. You started your book after the Reasoned Decision, I believe, was he still trying to find out what you guys were up to?

Albergotti By that point, I think he was a lot more focused on going after USADA than going after us. Lance’s strategy after the reasoned decision was to try and get anyone who would listen to believe USADA had lied. He claimed that USADA never offered him a “deal” like they did with the other riders. Publicly, USADA said they treated Armstrong like any other rider. The truth was, Armstrong’s legal team was in complete attack mode and denying that Armstrong doped down to the last minute. They prevented any deal from occurring.

Most of the other riders also had lawyers, and those lawyers took a less combative approach. It worked out better for them than for Lance.

I don’t blame the way it worked out on USADA. I think Lance’s legal team took an all-or-nothing approach and they lost.

schmalz Shockingly, that’s not what Lance claims. I guess some plates are still spinning. Man, he really wants to wear a speedo in a triathlon! So, what’s new in the new edition of Wheelmen? Did you see that? Did you see how I mentioned your book? Such a pro!

Albergotti Dan, you’re as pro as they come. By the way, I’m sorry you lost the yellow jersey at Floyd Bennett.

There’s a new afterword in the book that brings readers up to speed on the developments since the book was published, including the latest with Floyd Landis’s Whistleblower lawsuit against Armstrong. We’ve also included a juicy, profanity-laden email exchange between us and Armstrong. I think you’ll really like that part.

The paperback is hundreds of grams lighter, so you can take it with you on River Road without losing too much time up Alpine Hill. The drag coefficient of the paperback is also significantly lower than the hardcover, so it’s Floyd Bennett-friendly.

O’Connell Spoiler alert: there’s also a cryptic late night text message from Armstrong to USADA’s Travis Tygart.

schmalz I only carry The Catcher in the Rye with me when I race—that’s how I roll. It’s funny to think how little of this wouldn’t have happened if only Lance weren’t a jerk, why can’t he help himself?

O’Connell He couldn’t help himself from being a jerk because for most of his life he had vast support—from his mom, mentors, friends, coaches, teammates, fans, sponsors, charity staffers and supporters, girlfriends, all dedicating themselves to him and the idea that he was a winner. This is a big theme and a key part of narrative arc of Wheelmen: the system of support that was set up to ensure he would win, even if he was a jerk and kept on being a jerk. The system was there to ensure his dominance.

It became too easy for him to lie and to be offensive or rude to others. Indeed, against all odds, even after his lifetime ban from elite sports, Armstrong still viewed himself as a hero, as our new afterword shows.

Albergotti In many ways, Armstrong acted like any other superstar, and you get a good sense of throughout the book. We’ve come to expect this from star athletes and celebrities.

It’s amazing how much people around him were willing to take. His teammates, sponsors, friends, girlfriends, ex wife all kept the secret for so long despite the way he acted. In the end, it was his broken relationship with Landis that turned into the spark that led to his downfall. Even that could have been avoided if he’d had some compassion for the way Landis’s live had unraveled following his positive drug test in 2006.

schmalz Since you guys both work for a newspaper about money, how rich is Floyd going to get from all of this?

Albergotti Landis could collect up to a third of whatever the government recovers in the whistleblower case, and the government is asking for up to $120 million. But an award that high is unlikely, and it’s rare that whistleblowers get the maximum percentage. How rich is he going to get? Collecting even a small fraction of that sounds like a lot to me!

schmalz What do you predict Floyd will buy first? It’ll be a gold jet ski, right? It has to be a gold jet ski.

Albergotti I’m guessing he’ll definitely upgrade to electric shifting.

schmalz He doesn’t ride bikes anymore, maybe a Rascal scooter now and then but no bikes. So, was Lance right? Are you guys just making money off of his name?

O’Connell We didn’t quit our day jobs. And by the way, the ruling in the whistleblower case is out, and we’re looking at it now.

schmalz I’m hoping to be named as a beneficiary.

O’Connell Sorry to break it to you but your name is not listed as “beneficiary,”at least not in the judge’s ruling allowing the whistle-blower case to proceed.

Seriously though, for us Wheelmen is a labor of love. The underlying story of the rise and fall of American cycling is part of what we found incredibly compelling. We had to write it. We wanted to give readers the broader picture, and help them to understand the real roots of the doping on the U.S. Postal team.  We hope it will be a book that stands the test of time.

schmalz What do you think Lance’s next move will be? Is there an Arby’s managership in his future?

O’Connell For the rest of 2014 he will have to deal with the government’s false-claims lawsuit against him, as well as with his legal battle with prize insurer SCA in an arbitration this fall. Once those are resolved, he’ll look to reemerge in the public eye and he’ll become even more active on Twitter, Facebook and Mobli. Meanwhile, he’s got his bike shop, Mellow Johnny’s, in Austin and memberships to golf clubs in Hawaii as well as Austin, to occupy him. Managing Arby’s is probably not his style.

He might attempt to write a book one day. But for now that move would be  fraught with peril.

schmalz Do you think that George Hincapie’s book was a literary “lead out” of sorts?

Albergotti Ha! I never thought I would hear Dan Schmalz refer to Big George as literary.

O’Connell You could think of it as such, I suppose. However, Armstrong’s motivations, actions and relationships are far more complex than Hincapie’s were. That’s why we put an Armstrong-Web illustration and character list at the front of Wheelmen— to give people a flavor of Armstrong’s labyrinth of relationships and entanglements.

schmalz I didn’t read his book, because life is short, but I’m sure George wrote words good. I think Lance will need Jesus to be his ghost writer to make him seem like he’s a human being. If Lance called would either of you co-write his book?

O’Connell Wow, what a job that would be—and not a job for me, especially as a journalist. Wheelmen strikes a cord with readers, I think, because it’s a gripping story and one where we didn’t hold back. Reed and I were fair and objective and examined Armstrong the man and others around him without making it personal and without becoming overly critical. At the end of the day, after all of our hard work, it feels as if we did something right, telling the story the way it needed to be told, and in the broader context of the system that was in place to ensure Armstrong’s success. I can’t imagine investing myself in retelling that story the way that Armstrong—or any other one person—sees it.

schmalz Um, what would you have to say to the person who co-wrote Lance’s two books worth of fiction?

O’Connell My condolences.

Albergotti I’m sure Armstrong realizes that very few people would want to read his revised autobiography, enhanced with a dash of truth.
But there’s still stuff we don’t know, and what people might read is a true biography, done by a serious journalist with no limitations or predetermined ground rules. That could happen only if Armstrong opens up everything—all of his personal correspondence, bank records, medical records, etc. But I don’t think Armstrong would ever do that. He’d want to control the message and he’d never allow access to documents he thinks aren’t flattering. So I am doubtful Armstrong or any of his hand-picked biographers will be coming out with a book anyone wants to read.

schmalz It seems like he’s trying to spin the “I was only doing what everyone else was doing” plate, so I think he’s trying to jump start that narrative. Was he just playing along? Is he the victim here?

Albergotti When it comes to doping, he’s right. He was doing what everyone else was doing. But that misses the point. When confronted with credible allegations, Lance Inc. closed ranks and tried to roll over anyone who threatened to tell the truth. Over time, the lie became enormous and the casualties grew. That’s what Armstrong’s paying for now.

Instead of blaming the sport for its doping problem, he should be angry at the people around him who were terrible advisors. There’s a long list of friends, lawyers, sponsors, agents and business associates who failed at steering Lance Inc. in the right direction. After reading Wheelmen, you do begin to look at Armstrong as more of a cog in a larger machine. He got used, but he’s not the victim.

schmalz Yeah, but I would say that he went above and beyond as far as doping goes. He paid extra to Ferrari to try and get his exclusive services and he ratted out ex-teammates to the UCI, that doesn’t sound very “victim-y” to me. He should just go all in and say, “It was the dirtiest time in cycling, and I was the dirtiest of them all”; then he could come off like a gangster in yellow.

Albergotti He would definitely come off a little less whiny if he said that. Maybe you should be advising him.

The other thing everyone forgets is that after Armstrong retired, all his rivals were basically kicked out of the sport and saw their lives fall apart. Landis and Ullrich come to mind.

Armstrong makes it sound like he was the only guy to get busted. He was the LAST guy to get busted and he made a lot of money while the doping cops were catching up to him.

schmalz I imagine me advising Lance would just be me saying, “Hey, you’re being kind of a dick.”, over and over again. And then getting paid a golden jet ski for the effort. I hope he’s hiring.

He’s just never going to go away quietly is he?

Albergotti Now that the DOJ’s whistleblower case is going forward (The decision was filed Thursday), we’re going to be hearing from Armstrong a lot in the coming months or years, or at least his lawyers (speaking of golden jet skis).

schmalz Do you two still have to cover Lance? Aren’t you tired of him yet?

O’Connell We don’t have to cover Armstrong anymore, as reporters at The Wall Street Journal. Our newspaper work was really to be sure we broke the news about his doping, and the investigation, and the other unpredictable and surprising events leading to his downfall. More recently, our work as Wheelmen authors was to show the world the broader story, Armstrong’s motivations and actions and the broader cast of characters who enabled him to get away with his lie.

That said, Reed and I were able cultivate many, many sources while we were writing Wheelmen, and try to keep up with them.

I am still very interested in Armstrong. I plan to continue to follow him, especially how he deals with the challenges that are yet to come for him.

schmalz Betsy Andreu is going to be very disappointed if you don’t keep her I the loop, and you know that you don’t want to anger Betsy.

O’Connell But we would never call her fat.

Albergotti And we never quoted Lance saying she was fat.

schmalz The moment I knew Lance had seen Toto was when he said he never called her fat.

O’Connell And for the benefit of your fans who would like source docs, that was Toto # ……?

schmalz I’m going to go with “most of 2009”?

Albergotti And don’t forget BAAS.

schmalz 2009 was the year we thought we were going to get a cease and desist, but I think Lance couldn’t chance people coming to the site and reading the Ashenden interview, so we went nuts.

Albergotti Really, I thought that was year you were going to get acquired!

schmalz Yeah, there was a big bidding war for the website with the insider cartoon about European bike racing and a comments section where everyone called each other dumbasses.

Albergotti Dan, there’s an app that does nothing but say “Yo” and it is worth millions of dollars. Don’t sell yourself short.

schmalz Well, that’s just brilliance no one can hope to compete with. I want to get in on the company that sends you $20 worth of quarters for $26.

Join WHEELMEN authors Albergotti & O’Connell for their @reddit_AMA on 7/10 at 1 PM ET here: http://www.reddit.com/r/iama

 Photos courtesy Michael N. Meyer, Dow Jones and The Wall Street Journal.