Section head text.
At what point does it become appropriate for teams to start discussing team tactics together? How much do teammates matter in a Cat 5 race? When strong racers are racing and working their way up through the USA cycling ranks, shouldn’t they just be able to ride away from a mismatched field, whether they have anyone slowing the field or not? So, when does it become vital to have a strong team? When you’re a Cat 2? When you’re contending for a grand tour? When you are trying to win the Cat 4 leader’s jersey in a training series?
the 6 core riders on sakonnet this year are from NY, NJ and MA. add a racing matt koschara and that’s 7 in the area.
the team is registered for battenkill, bear and will be at harlem + mengoni gp among other “local” races.
that being said the team is more regional than local however doing well in NYC area is important to their sponsor and so they’ll be competitive at the “big” local races.
stacked in every category, every discipline -road, tt, cx, even mtb
Sommerville has a solid squad but if you are talking top teams in the NY/NJ metro area, WWV is tops from Cat4 – 1/2. Those guys just train and win. No BS,.
Sommerville has a solid squad but if you are talking top teams in the NY/NY metro area, WWV is tops from Cat4 – 1/2. Those guys just train and win. No BS,.
empire belongs on that list way more than adler
whoever posted the 20 or so comments below from-to himself should give it a break and watch cartoons or something.
but I only posted 3 of those comments
but bears repeating…the moose hunting post is all time.
forsythia bloometh profuthley
epic. more please. and yes, go Reed!
new topic: Any of you losers going out of town for some races this weekend? Or are you still gonna ride CP and PP? I’d already be bored of those venues by now.
leave the city, are you nuts
Wouldn’t know, don’t go to lame ass races.
Foundation only has Tgor and Lisbon. Granted, lisbon is pretty decent, again, one man does not make a team.
perhaps you should just have whos the best top 5 riders.
If you think team X is lame, at least have the confidence to sign your name
I’m not on Foundation but know they have Scott Wisenbaker plus a sprinter I don’t know the name of
Sakkonnet
Foundation
Empire
Mengoni
Kissena
kissena? they only have rashad. one man a team does not make.
last i checked they had 3 guys in the top 5 at Grants Tomb, none of which were Gavi or Guy.
or em1pire for that matter……
Other than gavi, when do you ever see sakkonnet? They are about as local as team jet fuel.
they all suck except for csc, quickstep and rabobank.
and high road’s outfit is ugly.
biking’s gay.
What about Mengoni? They are terrible this year. all they got is Wilson.
Is like the 4th best team in NYC now at best.
Sakkonnet
Empire
Foundation
Adler
Mengoni – what happened?
That’s the wrong list to put Adler on.
and dont get me started on the entire jelly belly team…
anyone who has a 1 or a 2 obviously sucks. Can’t go pro. So what if you place in elite races.
on Brian’s blog.
and what about that tom danielson guy? He’s like pro, but shouldn’t be!
hell, most of ’em are just overgrown Cat 1s anyway.
haha. totally.
a slow Cat 2
I personally think cyclists should taking out more pedestrians in the park. Show them who rules.
what a bunch of pussies who can’t get the points to upgrade to cat 1.
Spending all of that time training, and not even getting paid
http://www.crca.net/racing/schedule/
…Anon guy who complains about Ken.
Two options: The rest of your life must be so perfect that no TT in CP is messing up your fairytale life.
Or,
you have no woman, live in your parents basement, are unemployed or obnoxiously squeegee cars at stop lights for a living; you’ve never won a bike race, are a poser, and no one likes you…
The CRCA junior program was born on Mr. Ken Harris’ watch. The race finishes at the Met, and points races at Harlem hill, all on Ken’s watch. Unfortunately, the death of a park user during a TT also happened on his watch…he is dealing with that like a pro. And, while managing this PR nightmare is making the club better.
If you have such a problem with the club go find something else to suck at you disloyal, ungrateful S.O.B. As you are dissatisfied, I
no, the faster riders do post, hence, my posting.
I cant think of any Robs in the top 10 or so riders around here, can you?
I can name one…..or do only crca races count.
http://sommervillesports.org/results
Rob fast?
Hahaha. seriously. laughable.
why cant you anon. call another anon. person a pussy? ITS TOTALLY ANONYMOUS!
Why don’t you do your talking after the race, unless its a 2 lap race. whats the point talking shit the 2nd lap, other that showing you’re a jackass, who won’t be there at the end.
Thats the problem around here, people talk big, when theres about 15 people around this city that trade top 10 spots amongst themselves. So unless you are in that group, I’d probably just keep to yourself.
I meant talking as in action/attack. I don’t have a word to say. Action speaks louder than words.
I can’t stand a chatty field of:
hold your line, go faster, on your left, etc. Shut up and race biotch
oh, you never hear a word out of me. Don’t you worry.
Here we go again. Stupid dancing and signing knife fight from West Side Story Part II.
Dont you guys get it? The fastest riders dont bother to post much here. If it werent for us middling riders, this site would read like a black hole. Its like a 3rd grade class and every now and then one of the 5th graders comes in and smacks us on the head to remind us we are all dumb little wannabes.
I’ll be sure to wear my sash so you’ll know to grab my wheel.
I like to do my talking after about the 2nd lap. Don’t start whining if I gap.
It’s light years nicer than FBF
I’m not sure why you’d fight to race a TT in central park. besides convenience, its not really that spectacular a course.
what, we can’t call anyone a big sack of lame? this site is a big sack of lame.
I’ve never been pack fill…..funny how I don’t see you at the front…..
I would add that Im not at all sure that the club as a whole would be well served to push aggressively for TTs at this point. If there are people who count in the park org who oppose the idea and we push hard on the point, it could easily backfire in unpleasant ways. Im sure Ken and the board have weighed this carefully and have taken a prudent approach. Sometimes NYC style aggressive communication gets a big “finger” in response. We dont want that.
I dont think the conservancy runs the park, though I may be wrong. I think the issue is with getting the license, and more to the point with other groups like park police.
We cant forget that a member accidentally killed a citizen in the park, and perhaps the efforts of the board actually saved our ability to race AT ALL in CP. Have you thought about it from that angle, sir?
Perhaps you should also consider that the training efforts by club members are planned and approved at board meetings, chaired by the President. Mr. Harris is not solely responsible for all activities in CRCA, but no doubt contributed to the success of the last several years organization as a whole.
As an active member, I would say the club is functioning very well, and the races are both fun and plentiful. Overall high marks from me, esp considering the lack of large funding that makes our influence over the park org kinda slim at best.
I agree you should take your comments to Mr. Harris. Post here if it makes you feel better, but if you fail to speak to him directly, its you who are lame.
I’m your father and I’ll let you know when your going wayward.
You’re mistakening bitch-ass comments with snarkiness. You must be packfill…
You’re not telling him anything. You’re writing disparaging comments on a locker room wall. He may or may not read them. If you had any class or balls you would approach him in person and build with him.
THAT makes thing happen…
oh NO! No spring series results posted!? How do you sleep at night?
Why don’t you offer your services to AVD after a race?
Spring Series homepage still lists Week 5 leaders and has no results, despite two races last weekend.
I beg to differ, I think negative comments significantly help the community. Who’s gonna tell ken he’s got no style but us? Imagine if we didn’t rag on him? He might not even wear shoes, just barefoot pedaling!
discuss
How about we talk about TT’s in central park?
I for one would like to get a formal announcement from the CRCA regarding the status of these events. What is the real problem? If I
I’m sure he’s doing the best that he can do. Negative comments don’t help our community at all. What are YOU doing to help? Instead of trying to break him down why don’t you become proactive and contact him or the Conservancy chair yourself?
Lets build here, we are a community. Look for the best in everyone and hope that they’ll see that in you.
Bill Humphries 2nd from left. Far right Dicky Dunn?
been 4 succesful breaks in the 3/4 field so far this season. That is at least 1/2 of the races. I can’t believe I’m am typing this, but I agree with JFT, they have been difficult to create due to everyone willing to put out just enough effort to string it out, but not enough to break it loose, but it is obviously possible.
how many ny area racers take long team rides for regular training? That’s why most of the 2345s in the area have such varying fitness even within their teams. If you were training at least two times a week on a 75 mile ride, practicing leadouts, rolling single and double pacelines, echelons, etc, gradually everyone would get to a similar level of fitness and team tactics could begin to be effective. Especially since the teammates would be used to riding together and would trust each other’s wheels. You can’t build a high quality racing scene out of indoor training, solo long rides, and park races.
Well, slightly.
Let’s talk about the 3’s who race down. Sure, it’s their prerogative, but come on. If you can’t hang in a 123 race maybe you shouldn’t be a 3.
Come play with the big boys.
The CRC you can see on the sleeves is for CRC of A not CRCA.
LAST!!!!
The reason there aren’t breaks in some races isn’t that everyone wants to sit in. It’s that too many riders are willing to pull for no reason. They see someone else get a gap and they get hyper and up the speed. Being timid and not responding to attacks isn’t negative racing. Dragging the field around and keeping it together is.
Is this what happens when I don’t post? complete garbage?
Do we have to talk about Battenkill yet? If you’re jazzed on battenkill you must be a 3 or 4, judging by the interest from 1s and 2s. Its not a climbing race, it has hills, its a rolling course. Its a rolling road race. k? A climbing race has actual climbs in it, like something more than a mile. Bear mountain is not a climbing race either. Its a garbage local race that all the locals once again get all excited about because they swim in such a small pond.
As far as tactics go, beyond 1,2,3 race or maybe a masters race, there is nothing to be gained. 3s for the most part have their heads up their asses, 4s don’t know whats going on, and 5s are well 5s. There are VERY few teams around here that actually employ team strategies properly if ever. Pack welding cause you aren’t strong enough to bridge to a break is not a tactic, its annoying. Trying to get your entire team into a break isn’t a tactic, just more pack welding. You guys apparently watch these euro races on tv, but do you actually understand whats going on? I’d say no, because it doesn’t seem to carry over to your bike racing.
John Allis in the middle…
Who can name the rest?
remember the old days, before the intranets, when dumb people kept their dumb thotz to themselves?
you nutbags been watching the 3/4’s this year? Half of the races have been breaks. This has mainly been due to excellent team work. When it hasn’t broken up, teams have worked leadouts during the last lap.
And I am loving every minute of the CP races. I have always wanted to race bikes, and now that I’ve started (finally) I can’t find a thing to complain about other than the curse of the Saturday rain. Each race is a learning experience and I couldn’t be happier riding within a tactical situation, or counteracting another team’s game plan. Its certainly more interesting than a 40k time trial where I would just try and suffer more than the other guy…not that there is anything wrong with time trialing…
Cat 5 racers shouldn’t be allowed any tactics. It should be the usual race to die. Better yet would be to disallow any Cat 5 racing. Prove yourself in TT’s. No hiding behind someone. If you insist on Cat 5 RR’s, then fight it out mano a mano like the old days. Get over this bullshit.
grumpy phil is a cat 4 who got his upgrade yesterday
if we use the common analogy of a chess match, it don’t matter if two chess pros are playing it or two newbies – the same tactics are there to be used. A less seasoned racer, by trying and mastering stuff now, benefits from it later.
To practice now, it helps to have a strong team to do it with. Much of their strength comes from cooperation not just legs. So drill it now, I’m sure juniors in Europe do team tactics from real early on…
no, y’all shut up.
notice how in pro12 races, there’s ALWAYS “the break.” a good move gets up the road, and then eventually, the teams in the main peloton bring it back so their sprinters can have at it.
in 3/4/5 races, there’s NEVER “the break,” because everyone wants to sit in and be selfish, and only do things for themselves. to coordinate “the break,” one must have strength, and good teammates who won’t just go hunt them down 50 miles from the finish JUST to keep the field together.
this is why cat 1’s and 2’s R00LZZ
If that was true you wouldn’t be afraid to use your name
Give Victory Salute Professor (and now, indefatigable NYC online racing scene gadabout) his own blog. I’ll read it.
But the ball is in their court
ok, OK I’m coming out of the closet, my name is Pert Plus, you know, Matt Serra.
how do we really know that?
good post by the “Moose Hunter”. Very informative letter by RA also. I found the second angle to be the approach I’ve been taking recently. I had a pretty decent base builder with the team in Jan. but lost time in Feb/Mar. to the 9-5 and so knowing I’m on the right track gives me good hope for the summer.
Good luck all going North for a little local Hell!!
The brilliant peculiar whims of a troubled brain.
Meet me in the Wolman Rink showers at 11 and I’ll show you the real body and luscious shine of Pert Plus
thats disturbing.
JT is funnier than cranky.
is that funny in a sad way?
and is it contagious?
you’re my boy. I only read 1/4 of your post but anyone who gets the nickname T-Bone or Moose Hunter is ok with me.
I agree Adler and Reed can do well. But I wouldn’t count out Louden or Wisenbaker as locals who will do well in the 3s, despite a lack of team support and Empire will do well in the 2s. My money is on Kevin Molloy winning a small group sprint.
I’m sure there’s great riders elsewhere but whats the fun in talking about guys from upstate or NJ we don’t know from a hole in the wall? I live in NYC, and I know these guys, so I’m hoping a local guy does well. 30+ is going to be fun. Lots of NYC guys.
Will O is the new Ken Harris.
This is to the angry Cat 3, 4, or 5 guy that wrote the
Having a team plan is great in every field, cat 5 through TDF because it promotes goal oriented positive racing rather than the negative dumb luck racing we often see.
That said, in the lower categories teams that are successful win more because they are practicing positive racing rather having executed the technical team tactic perfectly. This is a subtle difference but one that matters. That same successful team would not be able to pull that move in a more experienced field, but they are learning, and are successful at their level and are on the right track. Still though they have lots of work to do to get those tactics air tight…humble pie is right on!
If you not first your last
That is a frightening level of argumentative detail.
Has to be one of the best posts I’ve ever seen here, although the “Todd” battles are my all time favorites.
i like JFT more than i like Cranky
I like JT. And I actually know who he is.
people would agree that he’s sort of a douche though.
Don’t forget Housatonic Hills, with that sprinters finish.
You guys are the most self hating bunch I’ve ever had the displeasure to commiserating with.
All this self hate and self denial, no wonder there’s so much pack fill.
“The rest of us will just be out on a fun training ride far from home.”
Why even go with that attitude?
Don’t give me that realist attitude either. 60% of this is guts and confidence…
For those NYVelocity acolytes faithfully paying attenion, we are now approaching the climax one of the longest-held grudges in NYVelocity history, a fearsome battle between an immovable object and an irresitible force.
And I’m not talking about JFT getting the rent money JP owes him. Or JFT getting respect and satisfaction in a helmet discussion. Or getting Cranky to stop hitting JFT with spitballs and giving him noogies, although those are all worthy grudges, and I hope to see them rectified soon. Wait, where was I?
Right. Back in ought-seven, must’ve been around September-time, when the harvest festivals had begun and we were all going to reap what we’d sowed during the season, when without warning down from the Great White North (defined as somewhere above 177th St) came the thundering hooves (or claws, or paws, or pads, I can’t really be sure being somewhat of a city boy … I saw some animal run across the road the other night in Central Park actually, and damn! if I didn’t bail out then and there, offer him my ride and run for the hills, I swear to heaven above that I think it was a wolverine that mated in a 3-way with a beaver and porcupine. Have you seen these things scurrying across the road? Seriously, what the hell are they?) … anyway, came the thundering fore-limbs of a magnificent, taunting, fairly honest, relatively knowledgable, cynical but in a lighted-hearted kind-of-way beast of a Moose. Yes, the thundering fore-limbs of a Moose let loose in Manhattan to taunt all lowly park-dwellers – the nefarious Bullwinkle:
https://www.nyvelocity.com/article.aspx?ID=1705&CID=2
Now, for those without the appropriate schooling and dedication to famous NYVelocity feuds, or just too lazy to read, allow me to paraphrase. Bullwinkle said Mr Albergotti could sprint like a mutha but otherwise was a fat-@ssed baboon that couldn’t climb a dungheap even if there was nekkid ladies on it offering free donuts and happy endings for all.
Then Buttermilk Jones hopped onto the great beast, and they rode off into the sunset, not to be heard from again.
Our young scrivener, having been thusly taunted in public, penned off the now infamous love-letter to the G-d’s of Cyclingnews (“The World Centre of Cycling” … those damn Brits just had to write “Centre” to infuriate me with their rarified, Anglican orthography, the bastards), anyway Reed supplicated himself before them and beseeched their help:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2007/letters09-11#2
And here we are in April 2008. The snow is melting, the rivers once again swell with mountain run-off and the forsythia bloometh profuthley in Central Park. Mr Albergotti now looks like Christian Bale in the Machinist and the Christmas hams that once passed for his buttocks have been burned as fuel throughout his winter of discontent.
So I call on you, Mr Buttermilk Jones, to ride that Moose back onto the isle of Manhattan and let him stand to account for his words. Step up, Bullwinkle. The day of reckoning is close. You have taunted Mr Albergotti, and come Saturday, April 19, 2008, one of you will be proved wrong.
Also, if anyone sees one of those creatures (platypus? obese mole?) rocking a Cannondale CAAD6 just tell him to keep it.
My pick…………Connor.
PRO AS $&!#
has hills! If you dont climb well the race will end on mile 8 when you hit the first big hill followed by the dirt. Dont expect a Prospect Park type course for 55 miles. The hills are short and steep and never ending. You will be hurting Sunday. Look at the winners from last year. All guys that can climb well on short steep hills and can motor on rollers. Its a course for the all arounders. Also, the temps, road conditions, and mechanicals all play a part. Lots of dropped chains going from 35mph on a down hill into a 14% climb can lead to alot of dropped chains.
Writing that Battenkill isnt a climbers race is a “huge chunk of mis-information!”. Sure you’ll do well if you can motor up climbs but you’ll be hurtin a lot more than the flywieght riders that can sit on wheels quite comfortably on the “flats”.
That always says Battenkill, Bear, Tokeneke, Unionvale are not climbers races. If you can climb it does not hurt in those races. And to be honest, the only climbers races we have in the NE are GMSR and Fitch. Besides that the longest climbs in a race around here are about 2 miles. I dont see guys like Wilson tearing up Battenkill… Also, last year a guy like Bunde was not in the hunt at Battenkill and he was a solid all arounder. The guys at the finish were smaller guys who could sprint and climb.
nobody here likes you, seriously.
Just because he does not get dropped does not mean he will be firing 100% at the finish. He may need to burn alot of matches to match certain accerations on the climbs. That course can wear you down if you are in the red 75% of the time.
Do you think you’re funny?
Stop talking about climbers, Battenkill is NOT a climber’s race.
Must I?
There’s that great scene in Lord of the Rings:Fellowship of The Ring in which Gandalf stands on a single bridge and proclaims ‘You Shall Not Pass’ to the Balrog that is chasing them. (Yes, yes – geek level of 12)
I write this as I see this excellent thread being dragged off topic by JFT. – ‘You Shall Not Pass’….
stay on topic, everyone, hold your lines…
there was this one time…at band camp…i went for a bike ride… it was really cool
Albergotti, Riseth (won the 4s last year), Pascale can climb, Tronn Witt can climb and was top 10 at GMSR in the 4s. They have some strong guys. WWV is by far the strongest team in the 3s. This race will be won by a guy up north on a small team. Someone who sits in and lets the NYC teams flex there muscles until the end when they are too tired to do anything. Watch for a guy named Benedict Wheeler. Guy can climb and has a sprint or Pettit.
Battenkill: Depends on the weather too. Hell, it could snow
beware the albergotti
who is so strong for adler in the 3’s. olsen got dropped on the 1st climb last year at battenkill. he’s probably their strongest 3. someone we don’t know will win battenkill in the 3’s, unless it’s a bunch sprint, then maybe a nyc’r takes it out. also, Will O won’t get dropped on those climbs. They’re not that difficult.
I was coached by one of the guys in the photo on the homepage when I was a 4 and starting 3 (there was no cat 5 at the time) and he put a lot of emphasis on bike pedalling right and bike handling (including learning to paceline well) and some emphasis on simple team tactics.
blah blah blah upstate hardmen blah blah
At least bike racers can try to execute a strategy as oppose to Tri-guys. Their only tactics is decide which man-kini to wear.
He is fast. Has enough points to upgrade to the 2s but realize one thing, he will not be the strongest guy in the Battenkill 3s. There are guys that can simply ride away from him on the steep hills. James Morrison, David Fierro, the little climbers with a kick etc will give him trouble on a long climb. However, he has the strongest team along with Adler in that race so that will help him alot. I see Goldman going off the front with a counter by Friefelder, to then set up Will O for a solo move around mile 45. Adler has the horse power to chase the moves down along with some of the mid size squads (CCNS – German and Larose) and (Keltic – Merrill and Ciocci). I think it will come down to a 5-10 man sprint with maybe Ryan Pettit, Ciocci, Freifelder or Thadeuz M (sp?) taking a win. The rest of us will do our death march into the finish.
Pro1 – Canadian or maybe Brownell of Empire followed by Lindine and Roger
Cat2 – Canadian or maybe Ben Showman (if he is racing)
Cat4s – the guy that soloed at Johnny Cake Jordand Sagolowski (Sp?)
The rest of us will just be out on a fun training ride far from home.
When I started racing as a five we were at the bottom of the food chain. Then, as a cat 4 it was even worse because then all of a sudden the 4’s were the worst bike racers around and I wished that I could just somehow upgrade to 3 where I assumed things will be looking up and I will have the respect of all on a bike. Now I find myself in this discussion again grouped with the 4’s and 5’s right at the bottom of the pile and I know for a fact that Dr. Will and I will not ever become 2’s. Maybe it’s time for me to smell the roses.
It was a BALROG. Some of us take this stuff very seriously. If you’re going to reference the greatest trilogy of all time (both in print and on the screen), have enough respect to be accurate. Sheesh.
Since implementing tactics takes practice, Cat.3/4 races is the right place for that now. If other teams are slow to react, it makes implementation even easier. So the more you practice to work as a team now, the better chance that you’ll know how to do it right when speeds pick up and other teams counter!
I think Brian nailed it. Most of us only have a vague clue about how to execute successful team tactics, and have the consistent fitness, team wide, to back it up. But hey, it’s fun trying… and learning
If I’m in a break and that conference call is telling me splits – I’ll take it.
I think successful implementation of race tactics depends on “experience” and “discipline”.
At Cat3-5 level strategies are probablydiscussed/reviewed/determined by teammates or team captains. Chances are their knowledge is from reading some books, getting advice from more experienced riders or watching races, and therefore I do not think are aware of small nuance of impact of the way a race may unfold, or have the experience to adjust the strategy(We race for 2 years and all of a sudden we experts, right?). Further, what are the chances of riders truly adopting the discipline required to work for the leader of the team or sacrifice oneself for the good of the team? I have seen enough scenes, where riders make more excuses for lack of fitness etc, and sit in and finish the race in mid pack. How often do you see guys riding so hard to lead out of chase down even at the expense of not finishing the race?
why not use bluetooth headsets and do a conference call on cell phones?
at least on an individual basis, team tactics are much more complex and you need the whole team to be at a very similar level of fitness. That seems to be somewhat rare localy.
apologies to mr gatens for being squirrelly here … i don’t know the good dr, but the more crying i see about him the more i hope he thrashes the 3 field
RED Gap clothing line too.
we lift the stigma of radio’s in the park…I’d love to try it out. I’m sure it would make things more interesting. Seriously – knowing splits via radio is a lot more effective than some marshall on the side of the road shouting out times and besides break-away riders could never how big a gap they have where as chase groups are the only riders that benefit. I’m sure others will disagree but I would imagine the ones that object probably have never used them.
Have you noticed that lot of bike companies are using “Red” in their product line…SRAM “Red”, Campy Record coming out with limited “Red” edition, Giordana out with “Red” bibs…what’s up with that?
There’s that great scene in Lord of the Rings:Fellowship of The Ring in which Gandalf stands on a single bridge and proclaims ‘You Shall Not Pass’ to the dragon that is chasing them. (Yes, yes – geek level of 12)
I write this as I see this excellent thread being dragged off topic by another discussion regarding Dr. Will. He rides bikes quickly, he’s a 3, leave it at that…You smoldering dragon of a troll – ‘You Shall Not Pass’….
stay on topic, everyone, hold your lines…
regarding team tactics – it’s fun to race with teammates knowing that you have a role and responsibility to fulfill. It’s added another dimension to all this silliness.
stop putting irrelavent youtube links up here. so annoying.
he is not even a doctor…
the second poster to this sting said “where everyone just sits around and pounces upon every single move like a fat kid onto a cupcake”
now that is funny.
as a 4, i haven’t quite decided if it really makes a difference, but working together with teammates and trying things is far more enjoyable than riding around for awhile and then all bunchng up for a sprint (referring only to local races).
sorry, i meant “string”
Dr. Will is a 3. He has every right to race it as a 3. If you’re worried about it, you probably couldn’t win anyway.
The fact that O’Donnel is racing Battenkill as a 3 is absurd
0
YEs there team of Cat2s, I mean 3s will put the hurt on the 3 field and probably set up Dave Freifelder or Will O for a win. Some other teams will have to chase with (Keltic, CCNS, Adler,) while the smaller guys sit in and try to survive until the right time.
Look for Westwood to show you how to use tactics.
The biggest difference I’ve seen between lower cat teams and more experienced upper cat teams is a rigid adherence to a team race strategy
Wonder Wheel team
survive
That’s great if we all always raced it but that’s only one type of race. Tactics may not work there in the lower cats but overall, they work.
As a cat 4 I’ve seen them play a part in almost every race that I’ve been in…
What are the team tactics for a race like BattenKill?
This point below is absolutely true. Its one of the reasons that racing in CP and PP and FBF is so fun vs. the
“big” races with long distances and hills. Those are cool to see who is fittest, but the park races are just really fun, with the opportunity to use teams to good effect. I havent been in a longer race in Cat 5-4-3 where tactics made the difference – aggressive racing maybe, but not real tactics. Most guys dont show up to those races to sacrifice themselves – they want to place and get points. Its total fun to give sacrificial attacks and leadouts though in the parks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU
Being there in itself is fun! Every other variable makes it even more fun…
Seem to work better in circuit races and crits. Big hilly races in the lower Cats seem to seperate the talent fast and the team is not as important. Sending your weaker Cat 4 up the road at a race like Tokeneke is not going to do much to the field. Only blow up your rider in about 5 minutes. Races like CP, Bethel, PP, BB, Floyd, seem to be ripe for tactics.
how about having fun?
team tactics are fun.
too many people seem to forget where this is going.
If you’re not 20 and a cat 2 chances are you should focus on having fun.
I am a Cat3 and have been doing alot of Pro1-3 races. These races definitely have more team tactics. Alot of attacks by the 1s and 2s with teams sitting in, pulling back etc etc. Sending weaker 3s up the road to set up race making counter. The difference is that in the 4 races or 3/4 races, there is often alot of pack fill not willing to go off the front for the good of the team. That leaves about 25% of the field making the race. In the Pro1-3 and def the Pro1-2 races I would say about 75% of the field can mix it up to make the race on much longer. I also think that in the 3s and down too many guys are racing for upgrade points and put there result before the team. Once you get to 1 and 2 level the upgrade points are pretty meaningless so you have guys sacrificing there race for one big attack etc. You are not going to get that from many 4s b/c either they dont have the legs or are saving them for the placing. Just my 2cents…
I think it depends how determined and organized the team is. They work less in the lesser categories beacuse we are still learning to race.
what, do cat 1’s and 2’s use gameplay charts and stuff before the race in a locker room?
even cat 4’s go in with a game plan. especially the larger teams. Settanta always goes for the sprint- NYVC is alway playing with different tactics- breaks, blocking, sprints. same with ave a.
rule is simple. you wearing the same jersey as a bunch of other dudes/chicks in a race? yeah? then go get yourself some of them there tactics.
no one’s saying strong 3/4s need teammates to win, nor that 1/2s aren’t better at riding tactically. the question is do you use tactics, and when.
and when youre riding around w/ guys/gals in the same clothes, youre a team, and this is a team sport, so ride like one. if you dont want to work as a part of a team, dont wear the same jersey. otherwise don’t kid yourself – youre just wearing matching clothes b/c youre too self-conscious not to be a on a “team” and riding around in a non-team jersey
sure, for 4s it won’t make a difference every time or all the time. that’s irrelevant, its still learning, it’s still more fun. and from what i read on thess pages the CRCA killer B race was won two weeks ago due to team tactics … mebbe those 4s are learning smth after all
Oh great. Another 1-2 rider who thinks that the rest of us might as well go home till we have to legs for 1-2 races. Nothing to learn in the 3-4-5 field about team tactics, right? No chance of a team possibly getting together with an agenda in a Cat 3 race. What folly that would be!
Hey Cat 1-2 – go stuff it.
Will there be more blood on the Kemmelberg? Story at 11.
when you become a cat 2, you see a drastic change in team tactics. instead of the jumble of crap that goes on in a 3/4 race, where everyone just sits around and pounces upon every single move like a fat kid onto a cupcake, you see that in P12 races, there are organized teams with an agenda, with members that actually know what they are doing.
cat 3’s and definitely 4’s and 5’s need no team mates to win, because in that period of time, you’re still developing your strength. in 12 races, it’s not so much strength, but tactics and WHERE you apply your strength.
cut both ways, getting in the way, going around, disrupting rhthym, slow in corners, motivating others that have missed the move, etc…just don’t ride so negatively that you get a bad reputation as there will be payback, at least, as when you can’t win you can prevent someone else from winning! Better my rival loses…
other than that…FIRST LOSER POSTING!!!