Course Argument

by Andy Shen

Section head text.

Now that many of the early season racing series have ended, it brings up the question – what sorts of riders are suited to winning at each course? Is there a specific type or style of rider that does well at the different venues? What kind of racers does well at Prospect? At Central Park? Who does well at Bethel or Branch Brook? Are there riders that only do well at one of the courses? Does the sprint at Prospect suit some racers more than the sprint at Central Park? Which course is more likely to see breakaways develop?

And, yes we realize that none of these courses have the mighty hilly profiles that exist up north—where the real hard men race.

116 Comments

Anonymous

you should videotape yourself and post your comments on youtube then we could see you and hear your voice which would be a big improvement over just reading your comments

jft

At least I know I’m pissed

You try to pretend to be aloof and insightful, but in truth you’re lame and petty and want the last word too.

Cranky

I tried to end the sniping 6 posts ago – why are you still looking for a fight? You live for this tomfoolery.

As usual, you are just making yourself look like a bigger baffoon with each new post. PECKA PECKA PECKA PECKA

are you done yet?

Cranky

thank you, but I sort of like Cowardly Douchebag better than Cowardly Tool.

You are by far the toughest typist named Forest I have ever not met in my life.

jft

coward’s an accurate and descriptive word: probably the most appropriate

But I’ll try to find an alternative to douchebag

but what am I?

“You suck>’
“Tool.”
“Dumbass.”

Can we work on the insults a little, guys? You’re insulting each other at a 3rd grade reading level. I think it was a President who said something like, “If you had a bit more brains, you’d make a decent half-wit.” Take off the carbon training wheels and have at it, guys. Let’s see some creative effort.

Anonymous

I did it once when it was at the usual end-of-year time and it was a fun wrap up to the season. Not sure if it’ll have the same vibe in May, but it’s a good event.

U-turn makes half the course feel critty, but it’s park bends for the rest of the course.

I placed and that added to my enjoyment…

Cranky

I don’t really know what it means to be called a weak straw man arguer, but I’m done arguing.

Be proud, JFT. Be proud. YOU WIN!

Anonymous

Is this a crit or more of a 1 mile sweeeping course like Bethel or Branchbrook? Uphill finish? Thanks

Anonymous

Is an insanely easy course with a small big ring hill and a hairpin turn. EASY..
Even though I didn’t place.. 🙂

Cranky

I tried to walk away JFT, but you keep yammering on and on.

You are a very courageous TOOL. A 2 percenter on this site, for sure.

Upstate guy

Take the train to Poughkeepsie from Grand Central and get off at Garrison (clesest) or Cold Spring (about 7 miles from bridge), ride a few miles on 9D headed south, over the Bear Mt. Bridge to 9w and Harriman.

jft

“unpopular views of the cycling world. ”

It’s evident that you’re so scared of being unpopular you’re afraid to even use your own name. Or else you know that 80% of what you say is lame, so hiding is the only way to safeguard your “popularity”

Well done Cranky. Well done.

Cranky

Maybe you missed the part about you winning. I think you did, because you responded with more fodder for me to use to insult you.

Regardless, I’ll stop with the anonymous insults, and walk away happy that you have found the perfect public forum here to voice your pompous, unpopular views of the cycling world.

You saw great riders do great things during your life, so you are totally legit. Pros are super strong, point well taken.

jft

I say I’m proud to simply finish a hard race in the field and you build that up into me saying I’m something I’m not just so you can knock it down.

Do you think that’s clever?

I’m only saying I’m proud on a personal level for that, and also that what is “legit” are my observations about some big riders. Not my riding. My observations.

So bang away dumbass. Use that against me. Whatever you want, you coward.

jft

but while the Fitchburg story wasn’t super-Armstrong it was damn good Armstrong, beating Coors Light and most of the other US pro teams when he was leading the US olympic team in their last race in the US. I’m proud of staying in the field to Watchusett that day.

Cranky

no need to get personal, i agree. i was off base in my last post. sorry JFT.

i rode in the grupetto with Floyd Landis at the Olean Stage Race 10 years ago, but that is meaningless today.

i beat Jeremiah Bishop in some local mountain bike races 12 years ago and he went on to medal at the Pan American Games in 2006. so what?

i’ll agree to stop the anonymous insults, but you do have to admit that how you fared against great riders years before they were great really doen’t mean anything today.

DJ got me to cat 2

“A wise man once told me don’t argue with fools, because people from a distance can’t tell who is who” -Jay-Z

save your breath brother

jft

I may not be a great racer, but I’ve been in races with a few big guys. The first pro-1-2 crit I finished (and was in a break in for a couple laps) Lance Armstrong dropped out of. I’ve done 100-mile road races with big guys and gave a rain jacket to one of the biggest US racers of all time before he has a bigshot (he underdressed, I overdressed for 4 hours in the rain on mountainside).

So while I may be packfill or worse in big races, I’ve seen a lot.

I’ve seen Lance Armstrong big ring the Princeton climb in Fitchburg RR *first hand* while I headed to a pack finish in that race.

PS it was a longshot, but 70th at Palmer this weekend followed a break for a couple miles in the last five miles of that race. I often try to get away in races rather than just sitting in for 20th. So what?

You’re a douchebag. A cowardly douchebag.

The observer - you know who.

with Chris M. JFT with all of his fact freaky posts, most times its rooted in some form of realism and he actually doesnt shy away from stamping a name on his words. Unfortunately A. Duncan found out what happens when signing your name to a post will get ya.

Chris M

Hey now, Cranky. JT may be opinionated and in my view sometimes wrongheaded (emphasis on the non-lacerated head there), but he is a long-time local racer and racing community supporter and deserves better than your anon flame. Maybe you could actually contribute something positive, or at least funny, instead of adding to the negativity. Just an idea, friend. At least go back to quasi-funny and leave off the violence.

Cranky

If JFT met him in person? Honestly, I think Boonen would punch him in the face. I mean honestly, the guy drops out of club park races, and places 70th in a local masters race, and has the gall to ponticifate in a public forum about what Boonen would do on a local race course against the locals.

JFT – do you read your posts before actually posting them? Seriously, this is getting borderline ridiculous.

Grin and Bear it

For training, ride hills a lot, sometimes hard. (If you can train for Bear on a trainer, you just might be sick enough to win.) During the race, stay near the front wherever/whenever possible, especially on the big downhill. If any of the danger men make a move, try to go with it–don’t save it all for 8th place sprint. Take a chance, test your strength. Don’t forget to eat, drink and be merry.

Yikes!

meaningless jibberish and skullduggery!!!
Bolderdash!
You’re all know-nothings!!!
expletive repetition…
(this is so much fun, I think I’ll start a cycling blog!)
first, I’ll have to get back on my meds…

Mr. Obvious

Start stretching immediately so that when Bear comes in 2 weeks you’ll be able to bend over and kiss your a$$ goodbye. If you haven’t been training for it already, your f*#@ed.

not a coach/culprit

save us from ourselves and witchcraft. Its not like previous experience and results ever count for anything, especially as you have the freedom train/race any way you like…
must be a McCain or Rev. Wrong supporter…

Anonymous

Please give us something to consider as an alternative to DJ’s musings. His methods seem like witchcraft. What do you think about training for real races on a trainer? It offends me deeply and I know you to be a purist. I’d like your opinion.

David Jordan

self imposed radio silence for a few days…too much “David Jordan” blah blah blah…
😉

David Jordan

Imagine the specific demand of the event. What rpm do you typically climb? What posture/position?
Tiorati is roughly a 10 min climb that changes pitch throughout and finishes with several rollers, on top of that you don’t really get a recovery period, such a long descent, as you climb up to a plateau of sorts that is Seven Lakes Drive. The other obvious course challenge is the 1/2 mile or so climb immediately on Lake Welch Drive, but it’s pitch remains consistent, and probably steeper on average than Tiorati. I won’t debate which is more difficult, but the latter comes later in the circuit and about 3 miles from the finish. The only real recovery on the circuit is the steep descent after the finish line to the bototm of Tiorati Drive.
That being said, try a resistance that creates a HR response close to LT with an rpm range that varies from 60-90. Change hand position often and get out of the saddle frequently.
Try to sustain this effort for 8-12 minutes with the final 2 minutes (above LT for 20 seconds/soft pedal for 10) to simulate the rollers at the end of the climb.
Ride steady state, zone 2,3; tempo; 50/50 fats/sugars; whatever you may call it, but it should allow you to recover and hydrate/take in calories for 10-15 minutes (zone 2, 3; rpm 100+) (simulate 7 Lakes Drive) and still remain close to race conditions.
Then try an effort that has a consistent rpm and position on the bike. Seated 85-90 rpm perhaps??? Everyone’s different but it should be the highest power/speed/HR/RPE/effort that you can sustain for 5-8 minutes.
Between these very different types of climbs and some tempo/recovery in between you should be able to simulate some of the conditions at Bear Mtn.
Repeat 2-3 times/75-90 minutes total as the amount of pedaling on a trainer greatly increases the amount of energy expended compared to real road conditions for a given amount of time.
Contact me through CRCA website if you have further questions.
Good Luck!

David Jordan

On a Computrainer, there are courses already downloaded. Or go to Cadence in Tribeca, or City Coach in Brooklyn, for CT workouts.

Anonymous

I’m no coach but based on my experience you need to put some climbing in the legs at intensity before Bear to get the legs muscles acclimated. I’m talking 10-12 min efforts.

DJ’s suggestion is good if you can’t get further north for some longer climbs.

Anonymous

1. Uccisore Abejorro
2. Coach L
3. Toni
4. Todd
5. Chris Loudon
6. The Good Thursday Agreement author
7. Victory Salute Professor
8. Tood
9. __________
10. Bullwinkle

David Jordan

Power to mass (watts/kg) at LT is more important than at VO2 or near VO2.
Picture Contador versus Valverde. Who would you bet on? Valverde, as LBL just showed us…
As for training, with less than two weeks, try this local route, short of actually training on the circuit itself, motopacing in between the climbs works well…
Ride River Road and at 9W head south to Closter Dock Road, descend down to 501 and turn north. At first light after NY State line turn right and climb up to 9W and turning South onto 9W (State Line Climb). Upon reaching Apline Ranger Station/River Road descent, ride a tight loop in the Marina parking lot…repeat circuit 3,4,5, etc. except on last loop DO NOT descend down RR, continue with finish at last loop sprint on 1/4 mile stretch just south of Apline Ranger Station prior to Closter Dock Road.
Any questions? email me.
http://www.crca.net/coaching/coaches/

If ayone is interested I will be ridig this loop Wednesday afternoons.

David Jordan

If anyone is interested I will be ridig this loop Wednesday afternoons.
(although my P:M on hills is not what it used to be…;))

David Jordan

If anyone is interested I will be riding this loop Wednesday afternoons.
sorry, spellcheckers, my “N” key needs help…
cheers

Anonymous

Some of the latest research data [1] shows that riders were able to alter the mechanics of their pedalling by being verbally coached to alter their pedal style. Actively pulling upwards at the back of the pedal stroke can increase power to the crank but efficiency will be reduced. The riders were most efficient using the pedal action they felt most at home with [1].

So according to this research, active thought on your style (pull up, scrape, throw, push) does not actually make you any more efficient. This was only a short term study and more research needs to be done to see if riders can learn to get more from the miles.

However, if you need more short term effort and you’re not worried about losing more energy as a result, pulling upwards at the back of the stroke will help.

Does that mean jump in and out of the saddle? Previous study data [2] from 2001 looked at riders’ efficiency during seated velodrome riding and on 5% gradient climbing in and out of the saddle. Despite increases in heart rate of around 8bpm (beats per minute) and an increase in breathing of 10% between out of the saddle and seated climbing, riders did not differ in efficiency when they adopted their preferred riding cadence [2].

Climbing cadence for the 5% grade was around 60rpm, seated or standing. However, to achieve the same power output on the flat as climbing (280-290 watts) cadence was around 90rpm. These were not riders who liked the Lance Armstrong way to climb at 100rpm, but they were fit and rode regularly, so perhaps one of the choices that achieving a level of riding fitness gives you is the chance to choose whether you climb in or out of the saddle.

We do know that Armstrong improved his efficiency 2-3% from 1992 to 2000 as a result of his training [3], and perhaps high cadence work was one of the keys to this change. Aside from the obvious putting in lots of miles, we don’t actually know what made him able to hike his efficiency above the 23% mark. Data from untrained subjects who weight-trained, and did not even touch a bike, show they improved cycling efficiency over eight weeks [4]. The report authors believed that the effect was due to neural adaptations [4].

Conversely, data from UK-based research has also shown that just one hour of riding at 60% effort reduces riding efficiency by almost 2%, reducing 5-minute time trial effort from 322 to 310 watts [5]. So, the nervous system can easily be taught to improve from an untrained status, but it may also lose efficiency in longer periods of riding – our efficiency can vary from minute to minute, month to month.

Pro pedalling project

Data from seven pro cyclists during the 1999 season covering the Tour, Giro and Vuelta shows that cadence drops on climbs to 60-80rpm [6]. In flat peloton-based stages and individual time trials cadence averages from 80-99rpm. Spin when riding against the clock or in a group but lower the revs when you climb for longer periods.

This goes against the 100rpm Lance climbing method, so one size does not fit all. Try varying cadences to see what works for you. At the very least it will stimulate your muscles and nervous system differently, most likely causing some positive changes in cycling efficiency.

Despite the numbers quoted above, the most efficient cadences are lower than those that most cyclists instinctively ride at. Why? Well, it’s not just about oxygen cost but also the perception of muscle effort and the nervous system feedback the rider receives. Optimal pedal rate in oxygen terms is about 60-70rpm (or lower), but measures of muscle electrical discharge show better efficiency at 80-90rpm [7].

You can probably get away with very small periods of lower rpm riding, but in day to day riding, racing and training the higher cadence band of 70 to 100rpm is the preferred starting point. Whereabouts you are in that zone depends on a lot of factors, but aim for better efficiency today.

Ways to improve efficiency

Pick a consistent climb of five minutes and choose varying gears and cadences to see what yields the lowest heart rate and also what instinctively feels the best way to climb.

Ride with your rpm number obscured then check afterwards to find out your preferred riding cadence. Ideally get a Polar cycle computer that downloads to a computer so you can see how cadence varies in the ride.

Improve your efficiency by doing different forms of riding: use rollers not a turbo; train at various cadences on road rides; try fixed indoor spin sessions and go fixed on the track or road.

Get every minute on the bike you can – even small sessions – and don’t give up for months on end and expect to pick up where you left off. Consistency is probably the biggest factor in pedal efficiency, then knowing what’s the best way to climb and when to change gears.

If you do hit the wall or start to fatigue think about being the smoothest you can, get food/gels down you and aim to use other riders or a smart route choice to get you home efficiently.

Anonymous

typical approach to a long climb in a race scenario is an initial, big acceleration by the strongest riders, to eliminate the weaker riders in the first few miles. Once the damage has been done there is a momentary break in the attacking (0-10% above threshold), as the front riders recover from their initial acceleration. The top climbers don

jft

Not at Boonen’s level, but he’s a pro sprinter that won the Coors Classic, Fitchburg and would smoke almost any local/regional rider in Harriman. Maybe there were a few Navigators pros in the area (when that team existed) or someone who could hang with that guy on a course like Harriman.

DHR

to Anon:

the best way to train for harriman is to scroll up and down, on NYVelocity pages, copying and pasting Spring Series results to show after every 12th comment, this should be in zone 2.

on the second week you’ll need to increase the frequency to every 10 posts, and up the insensity to zone 3, with 3 minutes of recovery between each bout. I would also recommend getting plenty of rest, so do this either seated or lying down, so you rest your legs for the hard work of climbing the Torati, which we all know the average NY Cat 4 would rip Boonen’s legs off on.

Will S.

No, I disagree 20 fast climbers will have these fields shredded every lap!
Which means the guys that can climb at 600 watts will stay away leaving all anyone who can produce behind!!

jj3

please repost SS results, b/c I do not want to scroll down. Are you that lazy? You scrolled down past the results to submit that comment- You are the definition of dumb and lazy.

Chris M

OK, in light of ‘563’ and JFT’s revelations of the obvious, Im just noting that my post was meant in a very ‘Vote for Pedro’ tone. I think we all know that Tom B would beat the 4 field at Bear, guys. And the rest of us too. Without sweating. And one-legged probably.

Anonymous

OK, in light of ‘563’ and JFT’s revelations of the obvious, Im just noting that my post was meant in a very ‘Vote for Pedro’ tone. I think we all know that Tom B would beat the 4 field at Bear, guys. And the rest of us too. Without sweating. And one-legged probably.

sucky cat 4

Is riding momentarily on the white line (but not actually in the jogger’s lane) to get around weaving “blockers” considered cheating?

David Jordan

If you have a fatr ass then you better have huge power…Harriman is not a climbers course as it descends into the climb and you still need good power on the moderate terrain of Seven Lakes Drive. Even if a “pure” climber could get away on Tiorati, he/she wouldn’t likely stay away from an organize group of chsers unless some TT skills…If you have any sprint, and climb somewhat, then stay with the wheels in front and drop it into 11 like Spinal Tap for the last 400 meters…to get away at Harriman you need both climbing and TT skills/fitness. To win you probably still need some sort of sprint…thats why Joao rules Harriman!!! If he comes back for that with 2 Bissell Team-mates he will win. Back in the day, he would drop us and the “bunch” would be 5-10 guys left over to sprint like Tony Taylor and Ray Diaz…very strong in Sprint, TT, power climbers…I was 172-178lbs. when I did well there…LONG TIME AGO…
🙂

Anonymous

“but even harriman which isn’t really a climbers race has sustained long-ish efforts which, if you live in brooklyn or queens or even downtown is really tough to train for, unless you have lots of time on your hands.”

Get a trainer and some guts. If you can’t put out the power it’s a problem with your head, not your location.

Anonymous

could someone post the spring series standings again, please? i don’t want to have to scroll down to see them.

jft

Haven’t been there in years, but it’s a rolling course, with a lot of up and down and some small roads. I think the sprint is flat but after a two-part steep uphill. Good all-around course.

Farther drive than many people think

Justin

Cat 4 Gulla – over 190 lbs – didn’t exactly struggle uphill. If you’re strong enough and fit enough you’ll be fine.

Cat 1-2 a different story I’m sure but closest I got to that was driving the lead car

jft

Univest – when he was an amateur

He’s slay most everyone in the area at Harriman. He’d big ring the whole of Tiorati if he wanted to, spinning easily if he wanted to.

Anonymous

Unionvale will separate the Mayor McCheese from the small fry – no question, in any catagory. A sprinters best possible chance there is to attack like crazy on the circuits and hope to open a decent gap before that climb. I love that race.

Chris M

yeah Rick, how can you seriously say that about Booden? You must be crazy and have no understanding of cycling! haha.

563

yeah you guys don’t know how hard pro’s race till you race with them!any pro sprinter will kick your climbing ass

Anonymous

it’s easy to train for crit/curcuit race type stuff if you can get to PP or CP. but even harriman which isn’t really a climbers race has sustained long-ish efforts which, if you live in brooklyn or queens or even downtown is really tough to train for, unless you have lots of time on your hands.

Anonymous

Spring Series Overall:
by:

1. George Gyarmathy
2. Igor Misicki
3. Franklin Burgos
4. Wilson Vasquez
5. Chris Loudon
6. Anthony Lowe
7. Rashad Guerra
8. Gary Steinberg
9. Geoff Bickford

Anonymous

I think the finishing climb at Union Vale is the hardest finish in terms of regional races. That climb hurts.

Anonymous

1.Igor Misicki
2.Franklin Burgos
3.Wilson Vasquez
4.Chris Loudon
5.Antony Lowe
6.Rashad Guerra
7.Gavin Roberston
8.Martin Lechowicz
9.Will Schneider
10.Glenroy Grifftith

Anonymous

dude a pro of the likes of Booden would kick all these guys up Bear…come on don’t be stupid!

You hv no idea what pro power is even like for a sprinter when it comes to a climb. This would be nothing for him!

It’s another level you don’t know about?

Rick

“f you weigh more than 160 pounds your not going to be able to climb with the fast guys in the cat 4 field at bear.”

Yeah Boonen would totally be suffering if he tried riding with the mighty Cat 4’s at Bear.

Anonymous

170-180 pounder can do well @ Bear ie…stay with the flywieghts and so on. Its the lighter guys that stand a good chance of getting pounded on the back stretch, the steady riser to the feedzone, the descent, and the flats. Honestly, bear can be a hard race but not a climbers race to lose. C’mon people we’ve spun this race many -a-times and yet no-one learns anything about their competition!

a little man

Most of the bigger guys climb good enough to hang in many of the regional races. There are few true climber’s races in the NE– sustained climbs, or a series of climbs that favor the little men with no sprint.

Anonymous

It is a big deal if you abide by the rules, attack early when it might not feel so good in order to work your way up the field and into position. Being forced into the jogger lane is one thing. Using it as a strategy another. It’s the equivalent of cutting the course. A chump move by a chump rider. Ought to be an instant DQ for more than that race. It’s also a good way to loose coveted racing permits. And yeah, I’ve also seen kreb riders do it.

Anonymous

if you weigh more than 160 pounds your not going to be able to climb with the fast guys in the cat 4 field at bear.

from a climber

bottom line the guys with the big round legs in 12 inch around will do fine in any of the flat races. But when we go up like bear or any sustain climb for more then a mile they will never make it in that direction.

Anonymous

oh, like some post finish dumbass crash into a barrier makes them dangerous. Please. They dont need them in PP, but someone could, say, just pay attention to the course to check for cheating?

Anonymous

When there were barriers 2-3 years ago, the race finishes were much more dangerous. Protest the result or have a “kind word” with the perpetrator after the race but going back to metal barriers is a dumb idea.

Cryptic

Fast;Yes;Fast and Powerful;Powerful and Fast;Winners;Yes;Yes;Depends.

Bonus question: Hardmen rule.

Comments are closed.