Section head text.
The Bike Argument
It’s new bike season! The time of year when racers start oogling the new offerings out there. So what does someone’s bike purchase say about them? Are they an overcompensating, all carbon rolling gluttony showcase? Or are they a fixed gear zealot? Are they a pro who will ride whatever the sponsor fount provides?
Personally, my bike says that I’m a thrifty wannabe who’s weaseled his way into equipment that’s way over his physical capabilities.
It was cool seeing McCormack at Sturbridge last spring (I guess a quick drive from home for him so an easy training race…though he was beat by Zoltan!!!!). He was parked next to my car, and when he got back from the race, he had two burst tubes on his spare wheels in the trunk. I told him it made me feel better that even the pros make that mistake once in a while… He was very gracious, though I suppose he could have flipped me the finger or something… 🙂
As for racing, Im sure some CRCA teams will gladly pick him up! If he wants to make money doing it, he’ll have to win I suppose…though I dont think its been long since he was, in fact, winning.
Ghostface Climber should dig the Shaolin press conference for Astana’s American co-sponsor.
http://caliradocyclist.blogspot.com/2007/01/astana-wu-tang-cycling-team-press.html
I knew I recognized that logo.
my other bike is a martini
Too bad about McCormack today. A team should pick up this great American Racing veteran.
Check out the great attitude he had after being told by the new owner of Colavita/ Sutter Home that they didn’t want to keep him on.
"I’m optimistic that I will still train and race competitively. I can’t see far enough into the future to know if it will be once a weekend or twice a month, but I hope it will remain part of my life. I really like the atmosphere and the people. It is just a fun group of people to be around
Heard CSC and Lampre are both on the Zipp Tangente this year. Cancellaras’ gonna rock on these bad boys. The verdict is still out on the look though — the labels are kind of cheesey. I heard from some guys at Interbike that the ones the pro teams use have no yellow on the them and say "SSC" in big block letters. Those will rock! especially with the Cervelos
2004 Large Giant TCR Composite/USE Alien Carbon Seatpost for Sale: $850. Contact me at bcooblal@yahoo.com.
1-3 watts? That’s tiny. The price for the tubular is not outageous though.
That said, there is certainly more than 1-3 watts variation between different brands of top level tires, so until there is some accurate rolling resistance measurements for these tires in comparison to other good tires, it seems to me that the best way to get fast rolling tires (if that’s what
matters to you) is to get what is known to roll fastest.
German’s Tour magazine does such testking from time to time and here are some results if they matter to you (they don’t matter so much to me — I ride tires I think corner well and don’t flat too easily and I can get at a good price):
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/3db6168314f3b034
Its a Ghostface reference from Fishscales. you’re out of the loop. He is a chump though 😉
"Chump" sounds a little more accurate.
I like Lee3 because I like a drinking man.
That’s why I ALWAYS wear a helmet
I post both sides of many things because reality is complicated and I’m unsure of a lot of things.
I guess it’s easier to just BS with certainty, huh?
Vino and Klodi will be throwing a leg over swiss precision this year – BMC machines with corima aero wheelsets. I hope they put another paint scheme on those frames. That black/Red color scheme stinks and would be a train wreck with the astana kit colors. Not a big fan of the all naked carbon look either unless the frame has text with a good bold font with some color. I like the new Wilier paint. Those frames are coming around. Anything Ridley puts out rocks, System
Six frames was a huge surprise. The sids party had a real piece work on dispay that night. Healthnet dropped the ball on their paint schemes for their frames. The only bike that looks awesome in white is LOOK. I dont know what to make of BTwin. The jury is still out, so far though I’m leaning toward thumbs down. Adios to BH frames. Never really liked them anyways. It was manolo’s way of having giant without having giant.
– he can get outta my corner and I hope he has a good doctor to rearrange his face….I’m da champ!
You found a website to support your views, so I can’t say you were BSing — I’ll assume you read that before you posted.
That site is weak though — it’s repeating bikey "wisdom" instead of mentioning real studies like the Bicycle Quarterly article. So you were probably wrong.
"fact freaks"? You wouldn’t give advice or info in public if you don’t care about facts. Non-factual info is called BS, remember?
I have a hunch that JFT is losing / lost his hair
Discuss:
A study done by some guys for Cyclosport magazine as reported in last June’s issue (or maybe May’s) reported almost no difference in velocity for riders running 80, 100, 120 and higher psi (clinchers). I don’t have the magazine here but I was surprised by the results. This was for non-pro riders but I doubt it makes a huge difference; perhaps enough if you are in the Pro Tour. But hey, if you are a high pressure guy or gal, go for it. Just get a bigger and better pump. I have Vredestein Fortezza clinchers that go to 160 and it’s a pain in the @ss to get them to 160 w/ my crappy floor pump.
We don’t need science for everything, but if there is science it trumps anecdote/experience and anecdote/experience trumps a hunch or vague speculation.
I’ve got no problem with people sharing hunches or gut feelings or even talking out their axx, but if they do and I question it, it pisses me off if they claim there is science or some sort of back up and there really isn’t. Yeah, that pisses me off big-time — it’s taking BS too far. Just admit you’re guessing and explain why.
I use speculation and hunches myself all the time — but if you ask me I’ll admit that’s what they are.
No it’s not.
Yes it is.
No. It’s not.
I love it -like anyone needs to have scientific backing for what they say on this thread. Gimme a break. Its aaaaaallllll BS my man…
is that Lee3 has a degree in Applied Physics from MIT and doesn’t need any back up info as he is able to write the back up info. It is all about vectors and quarks.
I’m still waiting to see if Lee3 has any kind of backup for what he wrote. Right or wrong, I hope he has something to show it wasn’t BS. He said there were websites about tire pressure that said what he said. Well?
Or the physics lol
more fish indeed
in wiseguy speak it comes from the Italian sausage, meaning a loser. As in "Guy’s a fuckin’ mortadella."
my guess is 0ft since you’re doing a full lap
sucka
now doesnt that say somethin
bolog-me! all a yous! you aint been hungry since supreme clientele!
What is the elevation gain for a lap at CP?
A good set of wheels wont win necessarily win you a race, because at the end of the day its all about the legs
If you’re gonna be full of s*** say it with confidence.
Like the guys who say wrong stuff with a lot of confidence
I’m even balder now….
Bologna sausage is an American version of the Italian mortadella (a finely hashed/ground pork sausage with lard pieces). The American version can alternatively be made out of chicken, turkey, beef, pork, or soybeans. It is commonly called bologna and often pronounced by hypercorrection) and/or spelled baloney. The "baloney" pronunciation can be used to mean "lies" and/or to express disbelief (see below).
bologna or maybe its just bolo-me!! hehehe
flame enough?
mr. bike knowlegde cant spell bologne..you tell’em matlock!
hehehe
I races and even *trained* on tubulars back in the day and still sometimes race a nice set — Zipp rims with good tires — cause they are light and aero. And I’ve ridden lots of good road tubulars. But the "tubular cornering" and faster tires thing is baloney.
"Cornering is way better aswell, with tubulars the tire is stuck onto the rim thus you can lean the bike over more."
No way.
"Not to mention better rolling resistence."
More baloney.
Would somebody please flame the shit out of these guys?
Take it to bikeforums or gaylovechatsite.com or somewhere. You guys are a FUCKING BORE.
if g-force wasn’t an issue — I don’t know
I’m just saying that people think "track tires are fast, they use high psi, therefore the same psi will be fast on the road" — and that conclusion about the road might not be true
I thought the only advantage of high PSI on track was to resist the high G-forces from the banked turns.
1. Lighter rims than clinchers
2. Easier to ride when completely flat than clinchers
3. More resistance to pinch flats than clinchers
Though I know of at least one expert/engineer who says #3 is not true. I think he’s wrong but am not sure.
I think everything else we here about advantages — "feel", taking high pressure (on the road) — are BS or placebo "advantages" or offer no advantage.
One thing we hear is lower rolling resistance, and it’s probably true that super-trick tubulars exist that have very low rolling resistance. But taking the same basic tire in a tubular and clincher version (such as Vittoria that markets the same tire in both versions), the clincher will have less rolling resistance. This has been measured and it’s speculated that with the tubulars some energy is lost in the glue "squirming" a tiny amount. Note — super fast track tires use shellack instead of glue. The shellack doesn’t squrim.
One other thing — believe whatever CT Mafia says. At least about cornering and tire selection for wet roads.
i run 170psi on dirt roads. you "fly" on the descents.
…coming from a guy who has time to log in and read and then even post, but not to post anything worth reading… Nice.
Isn’t much of this equipment useless for a mass start bike race?
Are you all just finding your inner tri-geek?
I want one of those jobs.
but as I understand it the main cause of rolling resistance is the energy needed to flex the tire casing and tread. External friction (between the tire and the road) itself isn’t a lot for racing tires — if it was our tires would wear out really fast as we’d be "skidding" along. So, with a super hard tire, maybe more energy is needed to flex the tire and casing? But I don’t really know the details or causes — I just know it’s complicated and perhaps the best understanding comes from observation and measurement, such as in the Bicycle Quarterly article I mentioned.
For sure there is a lot of myth involved in bike stuff that leads to weird "understanding" and BS. For example, it’s true that superlight track tires take really high pressure and are fast tires when used on the track. But too many of us assume that high pressure on the track with a track tire means higher pressue on the road is better too. But tracks are usually smoother than the road and road tires have to be tougher (which usually means stiffer, with more energy required to flex them) to deal with bumps, so it’s not that simple. If the road was perfectly smooth, probably a solid wheel like on a train would be best…
From what I’ve read the ideal road pressue in most condition for guys of average size is somewhere between 100 and 130 psi — but that’t a big range. I rode 100-105psi most of the time until last year when my teammates suggested I up that. I’m doing 110-115 in races now and am trying to see if that’s better but don’t really know. If anyone has more specific info I’d love to see it.
Wow- thats really amazing JT – I just dont understand how that can be possible, using my vast physics knowlege (hey, I got a "pass" in pass/fail Physics for Poets at Princeton…). Im genuinely curious if anyone has a study to refer us to here…
Im just assuming that higher pressures mean less surface area in contact with the ground, and hence less friction on standard road surfaces. Ive seen a few cyclists talk about ideal pressures in the 100-120 range, but just dont get it. Clearly the Michelin people must have some legit backing though, since their high end clincher race tire only goes to 120 psi vs 150 psi for Vittoria and others.
My question is then if ideal is 114 psi or something, why does anybody bother with tubulars, which go to 200+ I gather and folks list this as a key advantage over clinchers for racing wheels (ie. not just the lighter combined weight advantage or ride quality advantage, neither of which are all that huge when it comes down to it for racing…).
"So, in answer to your post – you can go to any site dealing with tire pressures and find this out."
Lee3 I’ll assume you are not BSing, so what site did you use?
"not BS – Physics. Depending on the weight of the rider of course, its pretty easy to figure out that higher psi equates to less rolling resistance."
Physics? Figure it out? Where did you learn this or did you do the calculations or experiments ("figure out") yourself?
I sure can’t make a physics model of rolling resistance, but I’ve read enough to know rolling resistance is way more complicated than a simple "harder is faster." Especially on an imperfect surface like a road. Here are some findings example from some experiments:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/572ff48dadfc7d1a?dmode=source&output=gplain
Questions have been raised about this guy’s methodology (control for wind in the experiments) but it’s pretty clear that think that the relationship between tire pressue and rolling resistance is complicated.
And when you add into the equation actually cornering on the tire, things get even more complicated.
If you want to say that generally a racing tire at 110psi is faster than 80psi, I can probably buy that. But when you start talking about absurdly high pressures and using words like "physics" and "figure out" I’d hope you’ve got some real data or did some really "figuring out". Have you? If you haven’t, what you’re saying is BS — you don’t really know if what you’re saying is true.
It *might* be true what you say, but you’re BSing in using words like "physics" and "figure out" to back it up.
To take this back to an older discussion on what I think about on long rides — I’ve realized that a fair amount of th time it’s epistemology…
not BS – Physics. Depending on the weight of the rider of course, its pretty easy to figure out that higher psi equates to less rolling resistance. A rider will get up to ones optimal speed faster, sprint quicker and climb faster. Tubulars tires are also lighter than clinchers so.. One of the trade offs for the high psi is a bumpy ride and compromises in traction. So, in answer to your post – you can go to any site dealing with tire pressures and find this out.
Lightweight Obermeyers are 1000 grams and 50mm dish, so they are light and aero. They are also one of the strogest wheelsets made due to the design and welding of the spokes to the hub and rim.
Hey, Ill sell you my Seven Axiom – bought 2.5 years ago, ridden ever since. Only 200 mi on it and never crashed! ha ha ha
I think the point about the carbon bars is not saying "Wow, only $200 instead of MSRP $300" — it’s saying, "well good bars (similar weight and strength) cost $70 in aluminum and $200 in carbon so I’ll get aluminum."
If you really can use that special shape, then maybe it’s worth paying for.
Make me an offer: Reynolds Cirros tubulars ’05, bought in ’06-less than 200 miles on them. Weight-1100grams, campy but can be changed to shimano. Retail-$1800
1000 for my bike and u all will wish u stayed home. bunch of bitches.hahahahaha.hahaha.so spend 6 7000 bike shops love ya
in other words, you don’t know what you are talking about and are just repeating CW (conventional wisdom) or even BS (you know what that means)
I want good wheels
Went to that site and couldnt get Jim Mora out of my head.
"Playoffs?….are you kiddin? playoffs?
at the cat 3 level, riders kick some ass on open pros, old low end campy stuff, 6 year old beat up aluminum frames, saddles so worn the padding is showing through…
I have also seen people show up for a cat 5 race on a new cervelo soloist carbon with carbon tubulars.
a wheel upgrade is one of the easiest and most effective upgrades for the money. rotational weigh affects acceleration, and remember that pound for pound, effort increases exponentially as the grade gets higher. so yes, a set of 1300 g wheels does make a difference in a long climb vs a set of 2Kg fatties. also think about the energy youre saving over the course of a 100 mi race. it can make a significan difference
and not to mention the countless times Lance trounced Jan on a good ‘ol set of Ksyriums vs. Jan’s Lightweights…
Jan was out of shape, lance wasnt. If they had the same wheelset Jan would still get hammered. I hope the Kaiser gets his sheot together this yr.
"Having a wheel with 180psi in and of itself will be a faster spin than a guy rolling @ say 125psi."
That’s pretty simplistic and probabably depends on the quality of the road.
Do you have any evidence for this or are you just repeating what you’ve heard?
have fun cornering at 180psi…
well I have 2 sets of wheels…aluminum 27mm rims w/bladed spokes..about 1750/set & spinergy carbon clinchers, 45mm 1650g. I think the spinergys feel faster at speed, but it’s pretty slight. I figure they are a good compromise between weight, aerodynamics, and practicality. They sure look nice though.
I do think that a good wheelset is the most effective upgrade on any bike…way more than a better gruppo etc…but for a non pro its probably very very slight
I agree with bike porn. Having a wheel with 180psi in and of itself will be a faster spin than a guy rolling @ say 125psi. I’m definitely going Easton tubular for 07′. I’ll save the clinchers for 9W.
cat 1/pro + heavy, old, 7 speed bike= 9 out of 10
CRCA rider + $10,000 bike = 2 out of 10
you guys should stop buying all this shit and just start taking EPO
It’s also about your head. Feeling light can make you feel faster out of proportion to any actual watts/kg gains.
most of you guys suck, and on a fairly wide spectrum of suckage. 700 grams lighter wheels might increase your performance, but you will still suck, just not quite as much, and probably not enough to beat the less sucky people higher on the suckage scale.
basically, the point is that your suckage is heavier than the difference in weight between your fancy 1100g wheels & 2000g bombers..
most of you guys suck, and on a fairly wide spectrum of suckage. 700 grams lighter wheels might increase your performance, but you will still suck, just not quite as much, and probably not enough to beat the less sucky people higher on the suckage scale.
basically, the point is that your suckage is heavier than the difference in weight between your fancy 1100g wheels & 2000g bombers..
Speaking about bikes- what’s the best way (ebay? craigslist…?) to sell a used racing bike? Any suggestions?
Thanks,
wr
yeah obviously lots of guys get dropped on climbs (i oughtta know) but would super light wheels make a difference? or ditching the extra water bottle for that matter? or is it, still, all about the motor? I suspect the latter.
JT, thanks for the tips, I can’t wait to start mixing paint thinner, and motor oil. Wait, I used to do that in college and drink it, or something similar. Wow that stuff was good.
Some of that stuff you got is thrifty and sweet – like the wheels and frame costs. Some stuff seems overpriced (to me) even at the big "discount" off retail. Like the handlebars. You can get great aluminum bars for $70.
I like that your budget included training and racing wheels.
yeah obviously lots of guys get dropped on climbs (i oughtta know) but would super light wheels make a difference? or ditching the extra water bottle for that matter? or is it, still, all about the motor? I suspect the latter.
Lee3 has the most pimpin’ bikes
I heard that Ken H. dropped Will R. on the downhill section at Sturbridge last year- anyone know?
I did a group ride in China last week and a guy asked me about Ken Harris.
if we all had carbon wheels that means we’d be as fast as the pros rite? didnt think so…
Ken Harris is seven feet tall and shoots bolts of lightning from his arse.
I ebay’d and Craiglisted my new dream ride piece by piece from April to August. PayCheck to Paycheck. A true labor of Love and yes she is black AND shiny. Check out the parts and the total cost.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pfQWpdG6H34CXXAnLd08TRw
how many guys you ever see break away on a downhill?
how many guys you see get dropped on Tiorati?
http://www.analyticcycling.com
but can cost you power
so saving 600 grams, which is 1.3 lbs of rotating weight, is going to make you climb up, say, Tiorati, how much faster? How much of that time are you going to make up on descents with heavier but more aero wheels?
THE HARD ON YOU GET FROM RIDING A NEW BIKE WEARS OFF IN ONE WEEK!!!
in my apartment, plus custom ventilation in the kitchen.
plus ask me about fire the guys upstairs from me started if you want a story sometime
Just buy bulk baybee. They have gallon jugs of everything from lube (prolink) to degreaser (some citrus stuff) to butt butter (bag balm). My fav bulk is gatorade, you’ll thank me later for that one.
And is that person (people) any good?
Jesus, I hope you have "no smoking" signs prominently displayed in your apt JT!! Sounds like a Fire Dept nightmare…
Once you’ve spent it once, and have the nice little bottle of lube, refill it with stuff from the auto supply store. Most or all high-end lubes are available there w/o the fancy names and crazy packaging. Wet lubes are motor oil. Pro Link (the best stuff I’ve ever used) is motor oil cut with paint thinner.
Ditto with cleaners — get a big can of paint thinner or citrus degreeser or detergent or whatever you like at the auto supply store or Home Depot and you’ll be set for years. And pick up a small tub of grease there while you’re at it.
$30 and you’ll be set for many years.
The amount we spend on the things that we break, wearout, or just replace before anything else happens is rediculous. I have over $800 worth of stuff on order and I am just keeping on top of the stuff that I’ve worn out in the last season. Nothing extravagant, things like new tires, a HRM strap (just the elastic bit), a minipump, cleats, new team kit, handlebar tape, lubes and cleaners. This is on top of whatever I bought to replace immediate needs in the middle of the season.
How’s a guy supposed to save for $1400 wheelsets and $5000 bicycles? No wonder I am slow, because I gotta replace all this old crap and can never get ahead.
I’m getting that bamboo bike – it’s so eco-friendly
Sold three bikes in May last year to buy the ultimate and never to buy another bike again in my life and now I have three bikes again. I’m ashamed. Agree with Chris M though. Will not buy another bike this year or next.
It’s not about the bike, it’s about the team.
Crickets, huh?
But didja check out Los Banditos? Funny stuff. Five guys, a sense of humor, and they can write. Kudos, fellas. When I grow up–if that’s the phrase–I want to be a Bandit.
http://www.gaylovechatsite.com
"Site not found"
But I’m not gay
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Yo, take it here already – http://www.gaylovechatsite.com
Gay love is hot
Justin did the preview last year and he moved. I wish he would move back.
"Someone" should do a season preview. Or we should demand that Dan S does one.
Ah, no worries JT! Thanks for remembering, but anytime is fine – btw, think I waved at you last Sun on 9W – hope you had a nice ride…mine was long and rather boring thank you…but cant complain about 50 deg in Jan.
I agree with Chris M – key is having the stuff that wears out replaced BEFORE it gives trouble. And plenty of good basic clothes that are always clean, dry and ready to go.
The worst is when you see some dude on a totally fly Cervelo or whatever with deep Zipps and such and a couple of disposable Gatorade bottles in the cages and a gray sweatshirt to keep warm. Wait, is this the dick thread? Sorry I just ragged on someone.
PS to Chris — I’ll get your t-shirt back to you soon. I washed it but then buried it somewhere.
It’s about the rider
The Adler guys rode a smart race.
How about a season preview thread? Or is it too early for that. I’m bored!
with an SRM, Lightweight tubulars and your choice of gruppo. Complete rig should set you back close to $17k once all is said and done.
Or Swiss with Italian parts!
Bicycles are so outdated. Chirp chirp.
Everything on the bike should either be italian, and/or Carbon.
my bike says i paid way too much money for a bike that’s going to be used in cat 5 races (but what do I care, it’s pretty)
and so do I.
When it began to dawn on me how much I need to spend each year on accessories… ie. realizing that helmets get trashed in time, shoes wear out, cogs/chains wear out plenty fast, more clothes get bought, always buying TUBES/TIRES/CO2, the list goes on… it got suddenly harder to justify buying an actual new bike. Im sticking with my horse till the damn thing cracks. But, I did buy a new bar/stem system for one bike this year for example, which addresses my fear of bars breaking with wear while also upgrading to stronger/lighter. So it feels new for a few rides!
Bottom line for me seems to be that stuff breaks and wears out fast enough that it becomes the catalyst for replacement, not because a new shiny bike is on the market. Just hoping the frame stays together longer than the rest of the stuff! Also hoping I can get through Sturbridge this year without another potentially frame-damaging crash…
It must be black. Black with shiny parts.