Road tubeless tires have been in the offing for a few years now, and now there’s finally one wheelset and two tires available. The wheelset, Shimano’s snappily named WH-7801, has an aggressive bead shape and a central well in the rim. The tires, Hutchinson’s Fusion 2 tubeless and Atom tubeless, also have a pronounced hooked bead, with a non-stretch carbon inner. The whole system will set you back about $1100. The risk takers among us, however, can give road tubeless a shot for about $100.
What follows is NOT a recommendation. Do not try this. Don’t do it. And if you do and roll a tire, don’t sue me.
I wrote about using Stan’s products to repair tubular tires a while back, and this unsanctioned experiment comes courtesy the same mad scientists. All you need is a valve stem, Stan’s sealant, Hutchinson’s tires, and a wheel with a rim without spoke holes. Ksyrium’s are the obvious choice, but Fulcrum Racing 1’s and 3’s, Campy Shamals, Hed 3’s, and any clincher disk wheel should work as well.
<i>Correction. The valve stem linked above is not the right valve. The 44mm valve needed will soon be available on notubes.com.</i>
Screw the valve onto the rim and mount the tire. I used Ksyrium’s, which have a flat rim bed. Without that central well, mounting the tire seemed almost impossible – the bead just doesn’t give. Then I realized that the bead will hop over the rim if you pull it by the tire tread instead of pushing it from below. Once I figured that out the tires mounted pretty quickly. Next, add sealant (same procedure detailed in the tubular repair article). I tried inflating the tires with a floor pump and was able to get both tires to seat and take air. (Stan’s says floor pumps work with most rims, the exception being Ksyrium’s.) However, all subsequent attempts failed and I had to resort to using CO2 cartridges. If you don’t want to waste a cartridge you could always go to a gas station or bike shop and use their compressor. The system will hold air without sealant, but it’s still a good idea to slosh the sealant around and plug any leaks. And that’s it. Done.
The Fusion tires I used are rated for 125 psi max, but most people recommend 90-95. The theory is that while a rock hard tire might roll faster on a perfect surface, real world conditions (Floyd Bennett anyone?) demand a bit of suspension. Any time your forward momentum is deflected up or down, that’s lost speed that’s dissipated in the form of vertical bouncing. If the tires can suck up some road irregularities more momentum can be preserved. And while lower pressure tires have more rolling resistance, tubeless tires should make up for some of this by not having a tube. Tubes make tires less supple, and the friction between tire and tube generates heat, another source of lost energy.
My first ride was at 95 psi, and it instantly put a shit eating smile on my face. The road felt as smooth as glass, as if I was riding rollers. Bumps are still there, but higher frequency buzz is all but eliminated. The smoother ride even made my pedal stroke more supple – you just don’t realize how much road vibration messes up your spin. The tires didn’t feel slow or squirmy. I took the Grant’s Tomb u-turn at 32 mph with no problems whatsoever. I swapped wheels with 6′ 4" 190 pound Marcus Dahloff, and he pronounced the ride ‘silky’. The next day I swapped wheels with Mike Margarite, who also found the ride smooth. Mike, however, thought they were slow and wanted to pump the tires up to 120 psi. Was he deceived by the Cadillac ride? I’m going to try to get some empirical evidence in the coming weeks to see if it was indeed slower.
Next I tried the tires at 115 psi, gradually letting out air throughout the ride, hoping to find a magical sweet spot. After a couple of hours I had let out so much air that the bead seal finally gave way, spraying out sealant. At that point the tires felt squirmy and uncertain, so I added some air and rode home (Hutchinson says you can ride these tires flat). Amazingly, I had ridden home with only 50 psi in the tires. Granted, I didn’t do any high speed cornering towards the end of the ride, but I’m still impressed by how well the tires held up and resisted rolling at such low pressures.
Time for Hate
At 290 and 295 grams (70 grams heavier than non-tubeless Fusions), these tires are a bit porky. They’re still a tad lighter than most clincher/tube combinations, but way heavier than most tubies. I was very surprised to find that the Ksyrium/Hutchinson front wheel was heavier than my humble home built Dura Ace/Reflex/DT 14-15 32 spoke wheels with a Schwalbe Milano tubie (1077 vs 1014 grams).
Oh, there’s also the putting life and limb in peril thing. And, since this is an unauthorized use of the tires, you can’t sue anyone if anything goes wrong.
So where does that leave us?
Assuming that a 90-95 psi tire can roll faster than a 120 psi tire, this setup could be a world beater. You don’t have to worry about a pinch flat or a sheared valve, and small punctures will be sealed by Stan’s sealant without you even noticing. And while they feel really really good, we’re all about hard data, so check back for more tests to determine if this setup is indeed faster.
It looks as though the Fusion tire bead is too fat to hook into a standard non-tubeless rim and therefore a dangerously unstable combination. I asked Adam Miklen (sp) @ Hutchinson USA about this back in May and, other than the obvious reason to promote the sale of more Shimano wheels, he assured me that this was a bad idea. However he did say that if any rim, the Ksyrium line would be the most logical choice due to the nature of the sidewall thickness and hook structure…. but then asked me not to sue him if I tried it and lost my front teeth.
I would rather buy a nice pair of clincher tires and be safe. Bad Idea if you ask me.
New U23 squad in North Carolina
A new U23 Developmental team is forming on the East Coast of the United States. Based out of Wilmington, North Carolina, the Elite Endurance U23 developmental programme is seeking riders. The team will focus heavily on fielding a roster to the Nationals, along with a fairly intense racing schedule throughout the 2008 summer.
At the moment, the team is finalising its budget for next season but should be adding 7-10 riders to their current roster. Interested riders should be Cat. 1 or Cat. 2 riders with a desire to move up to the pro ranks. Category 3 riders who show exceptional talent may also be considered.
Any riders that feel they may fit into the goals of this team must send race resumes to ncvelocoach@yahoo.com
Interesting if you are a bike pro R&D guy, but Id rather throw on a nice pair of clinchers and just be well trained to win the race rather than spend time on a dubious combo. Smooth ride is appealing though, but I might just go for regular tubular for this. I wonder if the other guys who swapped were riding tubulars, and whether the smooth ride was any better than if they used a standard tubular, or were just remarking on what we already know, which is that they are smoother than clinchers?
Those guys were running clinchers. Smoothness probably more to do with pressure. The thing is, you risk pinch flats running tubed clinchers at lower pressures. It’s probably as smooth as tubulars at the same pressure, though I don’t have Ksyrium tubular wheels, so I can’t eliminate the wheel as a factor in feel. The ultimate question is whether it’s faster, and I hope to find that out soon.
I dont like Monkeys.
Im scare of Monkeys.
I’ve been doing the opposite of your experiment on my mtb wheels for a while – running standard tires on tubeless wheels. (This is pretty common as tread types in tubeless tires are limited) So if you wanted to cut even more weight you might be able to use whatever light weight tire you prefer and the stan’s should seal it. I would think the bead / rim hook should work since, uh, that’s the set up we all use with no problems – i.e. a standard wheel and standard tire.
Anyone use these? Tufo makes them but they are $$ and not sure if there is much of a difference. I have Aeolus/HED 65 tubulars and Ksyerium SL Clinchers. Both are smooth and in my opinion the price of tubulars and tires you have to carry on rides are not worth it. Clincher set ups will always be the best bang for your buck in terms of durability and ride quality.
ride your bike!
so…many…words…
My mtb friends use Stan’s with great success. Some even seem to prefer Stan’s over a tubeless rim and tire.
tubeless is the SRAM of the wheel world…SRAM is awesome, but do you need three choices! What if you flat these things training; same headache as tubulars…might as well go with the super high performance sew-ups
I think it’s easy to fix them on the spot with sealant.
I would definitely not jury rig anything to do with tires though.
I’ve read that if you flat with tubeless you can either use sealant or an inner tube.
What I wonder about is how the Shimano tubeless wheels with the Hutchinsons stack up next to tubulars. Do they make good race wheels?
If you flat, take out the valve and put in a tube. If the sealant didn’t fix it on the fly it probably won’t fix it at all.
Not wanting to jury rig tires is a very understandable sentiment.
LOVE IT!
You can always take out the valve and put in a tube if you get a flat.
You can always put a tube in so you can still ride home
I’m running the legal version with sealant – the Fusion 2 seems to be more of a race day tire. I’ve put some training miles ie bad roads with debris and these nik up pretty quick.
I did get two punctures last weekend that lowered my air pressure to about 60-70 psi, I added some air at a regroup and came home safe and sound.
I would like to try nice training tire but not really willing to take a chance.
IRC has carbon bead tire for the Shimano wheel in the works.
P.S. I’am 200lbs with gear and run 104 psi in the rear and and 96 psi in the front on rough roads.
Don’t even think about using a regular folding tire (non Hutch) with stans and ksyrium as don’t sue me suggested. A regular folding kevlar bead stretches AND WILL BLOW OFF under the higher psi needed for a road set-up. The bead material on the hutch tubeless road tires is different and won’t stretch, thus blowing off.
Dont listen to stupid MTB guy who runs “normal tires” it only works for MTB because of the low PSI.
You could check the roling friction by using an iBike, no guessing. With the new software you could test a number of combo’s as different “profiles” and then report back. “They” say that if one uses latex tubes you get mostof the tubie advantages from clinchers?
You could check the roling friction by using an iBike, no guessing. With the new software you could test a number of combo’s as different “profiles” and then report back. “They” say that if one uses latex tubes you get mostof the tubie advantages from clinchers?
You could check the roling friction by using an iBike, no guessing. With the new software you could test a number of combo’s as different “profiles” and then report back. “They” say that if one uses latex tubes you get mostof the tubie advantages from clinchers?
Dont listen to stupid MTB guy who runs “normal tires” it only works for MTB because of the low PSI.
You could check the roling friction by using an iBike, no guessing. With the new software you could test a number of combo’s as different “profiles” and then report back. “They” say that if one uses latex tubes you get mostof the tubie advantages from clinchers?
Don’t even think about using a regular folding tire (non Hutch) with stans and ksyrium as don’t sue me suggested. A regular folding kevlar bead stretches AND WILL BLOW OFF under the higher psi needed for a road set-up. The bead material on the hutch tubeless road tires is different and won’t stretch, thus blowing off.
I’m running the legal version with sealant – the Fusion 2 seems to be more of a race day tire. I’ve put some training miles ie bad roads with debris and these nik up pretty quick.
I did get two punctures last weekend that lowered my air pressure to about 60-70 psi, I added some air at a regroup and came home safe and sound.
I would like to try nice training tire but not really willing to take a chance.
IRC has carbon bead tire for the Shimano wheel in the works.
P.S. I’am 200lbs with gear and run 104 psi in the rear and and 96 psi in the front on rough roads.
You can always put a tube in so you can still ride home
You can always take out the valve and put in a tube if you get a flat.
LOVE IT!
If you flat, take out the valve and put in a tube. If the sealant didn’t fix it on the fly it probably won’t fix it at all.
Not wanting to jury rig tires is a very understandable sentiment.
I’ve read that if you flat with tubeless you can either use sealant or an inner tube.
What I wonder about is how the Shimano tubeless wheels with the Hutchinsons stack up next to tubulars. Do they make good race wheels?
I think it’s easy to fix them on the spot with sealant.
I would definitely not jury rig anything to do with tires though.
tubeless is the SRAM of the wheel world…SRAM is awesome, but do you need three choices! What if you flat these things training; same headache as tubulars…might as well go with the super high performance sew-ups
so…many…words…
My mtb friends use Stan’s with great success. Some even seem to prefer Stan’s over a tubeless rim and tire.
ride your bike!
Anyone use these? Tufo makes them but they are $$ and not sure if there is much of a difference. I have Aeolus/HED 65 tubulars and Ksyerium SL Clinchers. Both are smooth and in my opinion the price of tubulars and tires you have to carry on rides are not worth it. Clincher set ups will always be the best bang for your buck in terms of durability and ride quality.
I’ve been doing the opposite of your experiment on my mtb wheels for a while – running standard tires on tubeless wheels. (This is pretty common as tread types in tubeless tires are limited) So if you wanted to cut even more weight you might be able to use whatever light weight tire you prefer and the stan’s should seal it. I would think the bead / rim hook should work since, uh, that’s the set up we all use with no problems – i.e. a standard wheel and standard tire.
I dont like Monkeys.
Im scare of Monkeys.
Interesting if you are a bike pro R&D guy, but Id rather throw on a nice pair of clinchers and just be well trained to win the race rather than spend time on a dubious combo. Smooth ride is appealing though, but I might just go for regular tubular for this. I wonder if the other guys who swapped were riding tubulars, and whether the smooth ride was any better than if they used a standard tubular, or were just remarking on what we already know, which is that they are smoother than clinchers?
Those guys were running clinchers. Smoothness probably more to do with pressure. The thing is, you risk pinch flats running tubed clinchers at lower pressures. It’s probably as smooth as tubulars at the same pressure, though I don’t have Ksyrium tubular wheels, so I can’t eliminate the wheel as a factor in feel. The ultimate question is whether it’s faster, and I hope to find that out soon.
New U23 squad in North Carolina
A new U23 Developmental team is forming on the East Coast of the United States. Based out of Wilmington, North Carolina, the Elite Endurance U23 developmental programme is seeking riders. The team will focus heavily on fielding a roster to the Nationals, along with a fairly intense racing schedule throughout the 2008 summer.
At the moment, the team is finalising its budget for next season but should be adding 7-10 riders to their current roster. Interested riders should be Cat. 1 or Cat. 2 riders with a desire to move up to the pro ranks. Category 3 riders who show exceptional talent may also be considered.
Any riders that feel they may fit into the goals of this team must send race resumes to ncvelocoach@yahoo.com
I would rather buy a nice pair of clincher tires and be safe. Bad Idea if you ask me.
It looks as though the Fusion tire bead is too fat to hook into a standard non-tubeless rim and therefore a dangerously unstable combination. I asked Adam Miklen (sp) @ Hutchinson USA about this back in May and, other than the obvious reason to promote the sale of more Shimano wheels, he assured me that this was a bad idea. However he did say that if any rim, the Ksyrium line would be the most logical choice due to the nature of the sidewall thickness and hook structure…. but then asked me not to sue him if I tried it and lost my front teeth.