Record Registration For Bear Mtn Fall Classic
By Mike Green
Registration for the Sept. 10, Nancy Morgenstern Memorial Bear Mountain Fall Classic opened at noon on Tuesday. By 3 pm, the Cat 4 Men’s race was full.
Race promoter Mike Green commented “this shows cycling is growing faster than ever in the northeast and is in a very healthy state.†Last year it took a week to fill the Cat 4 field. This spring it took 15 hours. Now just three hours. “Of course watching the Tour got a lot of people excited about trying to race. but the growth isn’t about the Tour, it’s about people getting excited about their own participation and it’s only going to keep growing as long as we keep putting on these races.†“There’s been a lot of doomsday talk about cycling lately, but at the grassroots as this race shows , the sport only grows strongerâ€, he continued.
The Bear Mountain race , put on by the Century Road Club Association is now a biannual event, with Spring and Fall races. They’re so popular because of the picturesque and challenging course. The 3 mile climb and 50 mph descents test riders’ strength and bike handling. “It’s a great race because of the park. We could fill three 100 rider Cat 4 fields but they won’t fit on the 14 mile circuit course. Maybe next spring we’ll start an extra field to start 2 hours early. “, said Green.
Besides the Cat 4 race, there are fields for Cat 3, Masters, Women 1/2/3 , Women Cat 4 and Pro/1/2 which still have open spots. The men’s Pro/1/2 and Women’s 1/2/3 have SRAM neutral support.
“We’re very proud that our Pro/1/2 race serves as a proving ground for potential pro riders. said Green. Last Falls’ race featured 2006 rookie pros Tom Peterson, Dan Greenfield and Bobby Lea.
National MastersRoad Race Champion, Mara Miiler , returns to defend her Women’s 1/2/3 title and tries to take home a second Nancy Morgernstern Memorial Trophy. . After winning on her own last year, this year Mara will be aided by her Advil/Chapstick teammates. While not taking credit, Green likes to think that last Fall’s race helped the Advil/Chapstick team coalesce.. With a core of local women and some guest
riders like Australia’s Rochelle Gilmore, Advil/Chapstick placed in the top 10 in the women’s Prestige series, the most elite women’s races in the US.
For the first time this Fall’s race, will have a separate start for Cat 4 women. “We’rte doing our best to encourage women to race.†said Green. “This will give the Cat 4 women a much better racing experience. As much as I want to get more prize money for the Pro/1/2 field, we also want to do what we can to get new riders and especially more women into the sport.†, said Green.
Registration for the race is on bikereg.com
The race is dedicated to the memory of Nancy Morgernstern. Nancy finished 2nd in the Fall 2000 Bear Mtn Cat 4 women’s race. She was killed in the attack on the World Trade Center.
Thanks again for the personal heads up on registration!!! I owe ya one!
lee, do you have a real job?
Anonymous – didn’t you know that Lee is paid by NYVelocity to post on this website? I mean, where have you been. It’s completely public knowledge.
Lee is busy surfing the net. He can’t come to the phone right now.
If he is on the NYCvelo pay roll, why is he riding for the Vegan team? Last I heard he still enjoys his burgers, too.
I could use a little supplemental income. Fact is….I’m a cycling geek, I dig the local community of characters I race with and being an architect sitting at the desk of a zippy fast think box allows me the time to chime in at will and still make sure the hvac doesnt wind up conflicting with a beam layout!!
Havent had a burger in a while but I do still get my turkey on from time to time.
Ah, I see. Keep it up, then.
Oh, btw make sure to sport your CURRENT team kit when you go on training ride, though we know you would rather not. You are on their payroll also ; )
its funny how not knowing the name of an anonymous poster, you only have his words to define his angle or persona and based on his pointed or snide remarks below, its not very pretty…
Why is there a cat 4 women’s field (which will have 30 riders if they’re lucky) instead of another Cat 4 field which might take a day to fill to capacity? Sure we should be bringing novices into the sport but there are plenty of venues for this, most importantly the crca racing clinics. With an entry fee of $30, a field of 30 rather than 100 costs the club $2100 which goes towards improving all our crca races. Grear run races but poor decision by management on this one.
doofus alert.
Another Cat 4 race of 56 miles will cause much more congestion than a small 42 mile womens field.
all women ride together
Only 1 volunteer so far. We need 35 including 12 people with cars. Not enough marshals , NO RACE.
email marshal@crca.net to volunteer
volunteers get 2 free marshal dates next year.
How can we help to spread the word out that we need marshals?
Has this been considered? Raise registration rate $5 and also hire marshals not in CRCA so begging and threatening cancellation isn’t required. Marhals don’t have to be CRCA members, right?
I think it would be poor form to exclude Cat 4 women from the race, since it is named after a Cat 4 woman.
I think CRCA riders should be limited to 60 riders..who the heck wants to race against the same bone heads that you race against in CP?
Bear Mountain Race=CRCA race…
Editor! Editor!
Cancelled due to marshal shortage
Please allow me to weigh in on a couple of things that have been bouncing in here. I have a unique perspective being that I ran this race with Mike Green in the spring and have worked with him on these issues.
First, to "The issue everyone has been skirting" — sure the race could make a ton of money by adding another cat 4 field; but in a 14 mile loop such at the course at Harriman you can’t have more than 5-6 fields out there at one time. Having 200 cat 4’s out there is going to overcrowd the course, and god forbit if one of them goes over the yellow line it’s race over…..for good. If the finances of the race would allow it I would restrict the 4 field to 75; better fit for the roads than 100.
2nd, to "Suggestion" — there is no such thing as a volunteer in NYC bike racing. This race has paid marshalls ever since I can remember, and at a good amount at that. This is the primary reason why the fees are $35 and $30 to race; it’s high but it’s needed.
3rdly, to "jon hicks", it’s a nice idea but in theory you could have 2 people paying a different amount for the same race. These days that will drag you into a courtroom. The field limits make it a "first come-first served", which is a concept that has been used for years and works well too.
Here’s to Mike Green for continuing this race on.
Alan
We always hear something like this: "and god forbit if one of them goes over the yellow line it’s race over…..for good," but race officials seem to take it only slightly more seriously than riders – not too much.
"there is no such thing as a volunteer in NYC bike racing. This race has paid marshalls ever since I can remember, and at a good amount at that."
So why call them volunteers? Maybe there would be more if Mike advertised that he was HIRING marshals, not hoping for volunteers.
Alan – actually, under Jon’s proposal the final price paid by everyone in the field is the lowest bid that still makes the field limit. Sounds complex but very achievable with internet based registration. You’d just have to get one of the registration sites to do the programming to take in bids and then select the field on some predetermined date after opening bidding.
bidding example…3 slots for Cat 4 Men’s field but 5 bids are submitted of $20, $17, $15, $13, and $11, with a minimum bid of $10. the top 3 bidders get in and each pays $15 as we know that is what each is willing to pay to race.
bidding for a spot? good god, only in NYC. just register in time next time.
oh, and the online reg sites are going to devote a signifgant amount of time and money to completely overhaul their backend so that for two races out of the year, a couple more guys from NYC can do the one out of town race that they do all year.
register in time? let’s see, we got 12 hours notice – around midnight no less – about the race registration and then it closed 3 hours after opening. so if by chance you were travelling, working away from your computer, computer problems (my internet was not working for part of the past 3 days) or even out riding during that 15 hour period, you were out of luck. and about 1/3 to 1/2 of my team does not spend their day in front of PCs so they are screwed… that is supposed to be a good system? as for the website backend, i defer to the techines. i would note, however, that we currently recieve real-time lists of registered riders on the website so i do not know how much more difficult it would be to have riders fill in a tab called "bid" and then post riders anonymously with their bids. once the bid period is over you count down from the top of the list until you fill the slots, those that don’t make the cut get their money back. and why is the back-end redo just about "two out of town races"? how do we know there is not big demand for non-NYC races – Fitchburg, Green Mountain, Jiminy are just a few that I can think of in the Northeast let alone the rest of the country – that could use a bidding process? let’s keep in mind the big picture – large demand for some fields, limited ability to add more fields to the race day, scramble to get volunteers to marshall/staff the event, and a desire to get as many people racing as possible without bastardizing the fields, eg, running Pros and Cat 4s in same field. and the only people who can solve this are the promoters – individuals or clubs – and like most things in life what is their incentive and PAYBACK at this time for accommodating any of the above? their love for racers? financial reward? masochism? something else? most of us know that promoting an event is not easy even under the best of circumstances and under the current set-up we see some signs of strain. let’s take advantage of the desire of Cat 4s to race at Bear into something useful, in this case potentially greater income, that can improve the event for the key constituents – racers, promoters, venue hosts, and staff – rather than artificially limit its potential and leave the various parties complaining about the situation. something(s) should change for if we continue to go along the same path then the only thing that will change is that the volume of complaints will go up (good for chatboards i suppose) – we need more fields, we should combine fields, we should get rid of fields, we can’t get enough marshalls, etc. – and very little will get better. i am NOT suggesting that bidding is the only/best way to go but i do think it can at least help vis a vis these issues that we all would like to see improved and at a minimum will increase our market intelligence about putting on a race.
UPGRADE and you wont have to worry about it. SANDBAGGERS
You are receiving this message as a registered participant of
Tour of the Hilltowns (PRE-REG ONLY)
————————————————-
I regret to have to inform you, that The Tour of the Hilltowns has been
canceled. We have made this decision do to the lack of voluteers, we, the
NCC Board, do not feel we could put on a high quality, safe event.
We will be sending out refund check in the next couple of weeks.
We are planning on running this race next season.
Thank You,
Kevin LaCroix
Race Director
klacroix@charter.net
Hey guys….just finished Stg .1 of the Tour Of Christiana. The course is awesome! The TT stage tomorrow is like right of a Norman Rockwell painting. Latest news
Filip Capala wins stg.1 of the 4’s! The kid was awesome!
Armand Del Monte wins stage 1 of the 3’s by several bike lengths.
Didnt see the Pro’s but I think Zoltan got top 10
will check in tomorrow.
sorry that was Armand Della Monica.
I’ll wager a bet that lee3 didn’t miss Bear pre-reg.
You would win that bet!
re: Jon Hicks bidding idea sounds very interesting.
However I’m going to suggest a easier, simpler, faster and cheaper way to handle registration:
1. There are 100 spots
2. Registration opens
3. The first 100 people to register get a spot
4. Registration closes
I think it can work.
Mike – Is there a site where the public(mostly NON racing cyclist or just friends/family) can see what volunteering as a marshal for Bear Mt Race means? – what they need to bring, time commitment, meal, etc?
I already spoke to a few friends and I have some folks interested.
Thanks
I sent info out on crca.net.
includes marshal instructions and sites.
hrs should be from 8 am to 2 pm.
Marshals play more of a traffic control and direction role than whistle blowing role.
re: However I’m going to suggest a easier, simpler, faster and cheaper way to handle registration.
Laura, it’s not about the PROCESS of registration – that part we can handle.
what exactly is it that scares you about the notion of bidding? We have an OPEN race – not a CRCA club race – that is a limited commodity and we have excessive demand for it among a very specific group of people – 20% oversubscribed for the Cat 4s as i write this. At what level of oversubscription – 50%, 100%, 1,000%? – should Mike Green/CRCA say "Gee, we have something that people really want. What can we get for it? How can we use what we can get to benefit racing?"
do you think any other part of the bike industry, or any other industry for that matter, would artificially keep prices low if they had such a demand for an item? and maybe if they raised prices it would initially keep some people from buying the higher price product and the company would keep some of the excess profits…and maybe they would take some of those profits to make new products, hire new staff, expand into new markets, you know, things that might be good for consumers. and if they did not "share" the profits via new products, markets, etc. then outsiders seeing the profits to be made would step in and offer similar products, go into those markets, etc. – sort of like Campy getting invaded by Shimano 30 years ago (how did that work out?).
how about this simple Bear Mtn example… . 2 regional races – Tokeneke and Hilltowns – just got cancelled for lack of marshalls. Bear is an OPEN race, not a subsidized club race in which we all have to volunteer to marshall. currently Mike is offering 2 free marshall dates for 2007 and it does not appear to be doing the trick yet with only 1 out of 35 slots filled as of yesterday morning. maybe his current offer will work, but maybe it won’t. Either way if we don
Jon you seemed to overlook this "Maybe next spring we
Tokeneke’s and Hilltowns’ promoters told us that lack of marshals sank those races, but we don’t actually know that that is true. I was registered for both of those races, and probably could have brought a marshal if I’d been asked in time. But there was never any communication with registrants that the race was in danger. I signed up many weeks ago and didn’t hear anything until they were canceled.
I guess my point is that the promoters could have been better at asking for help. Also, I gladly would have paid $5-10 more if that would have helped, but I wasn’t asked. I would guess that most of the registrants feel the same
I think the lesson in those cancellations is as much there for promoters as for racers.
Aaron, you are correct that promoters could be lying to us re: Tokeneke and Hilltowns, but unless they are really hiding something awful, why not tell us the truth? so i’ll give them the benefit of the doubt on their rationale. and, yes, it is too bad that it was (possibly) not known that there was a need for marshall support. and it is cool that you have someone who can lend a hand.
"I gladly would have paid $5-10 more if that would have helped, but I wasn’t asked. I would guess that most of the registrants feel the same" so you and the rest of the Cat 4s could have bid $35-40 at a minimum and you would be no worse for the wear by putting up $$$ to help the race out…
"Keeping the race entries fees as low as possible to keep cycling races open to all is important." well you just contradicted your comment from above by saying there is a willingness and ability to RAISE the cost of racing. the difference is that the promoter will make it mandatory and bidding will make it optional. either way you may be asked to pay MORE to race…
"Maybe next spring we
"Time" is an economical factor so is "product" so is history.The point is is that the reason the races are structured in this fashion is probably because it is what works best at this time and in the past.Its a simple process that allows the promoter to focus on other aspects of what it is he/she does.Being simple as apposed to complex is what economical is.Any other way and it isnt gonna help anyone.
Also if racing is indeed growing as some here have alluded to the the best answer is to have a cat 6.
I’m not saying "lying," I’m just saying that "not enough marshals" probably isn’t the whole story.
Jon, don’t give up on your idea– just a year ago some of CRCA seemed pretty set against using a video camera for park club races. Now the money has been earmarked, according to the latest newsletter.
Jon,
I’m afraid of nothing but a broken heart.
When I said "easier, simpler, faster and cheaper" I meant for the organizers (not for the racers).
Altought, I really like your interpretation.
We do agree on this: If the demand for a particular field is high, it should cost more to register in it. Use the extra money for the race.
I’ll bet most Cat4 would not mind paying $10~30 more for Bear Mountain.
No need for a bidding system. Just price that field higher and explain why.
The system Jon describes would be sophisticated and expensive to develop.
He should build it, offer it to racelistings and bikeregister and see what kind of response he gets.
Good luck.
Laura…i agree that most would likely pay more. i just think we have the tools to be be more accurate about what the market can bear, no pun intended, by using a bid with minimum pricing. and more important than any of this bike stuff, let’s hope that you don’t get your heart broken 🙂
Aaron..thanks for clarification and i likely won’t give up on the idea. no downside to throwing it out there.
Anonymous…still not sure why riders putting in their own bid vs. a fixed price is so much extra effort for the registration sites. and if they don’t make the field via bidding how is that different than being on the wait list except for possibly having to refund money to the riders (maybe that is complex/costly)? my thought is that the output we see on the screen would be similar to what we see now with the current registered riders in alpha order. the only difference might be an extra column showing the bids submitted listed from high to low in an anonymous fashion, eg, Rider 1 – bid $100, Rider 2 – bid $90, etc. that way we can see on a real-time basis what the market for space is really like. i can see how maybe allowing people to change their bids over time is more complex. and i will take you up on your offer … although i have an engineering degree, i can’t build something like my proposal but i will submit it to the powers that be at bikereg, racelistings, and CRCA board to see if it is doable.
Richie Rich…appreciate the fact that things were always done this way and it likely worked OK. I am just saying that we may want/need to rethink the future. you are correct that time is money, hence my comment that if it is too expensive/complex just to do the registration back-end and front-end then the idea may flunk the test on that basis alone. cat 6? now that’s a field i ought to be in!
ALL of your respective opinions are appreciated…thanks.
What if demand drops?
Your example of an extra $3500.00 to spread among the marshals (assuming that the demand drives up the price) works only as long as demand stays high. Whereas a volunteer system may or may not be popularity proof.
Market forces currently in place (high demand for the cat 4 field) will not always be so, even though they may remain high for quite a while.
What happens if demand for the race drops and the extra $ is not there next year?
B.
demand not as high?…that is one reason why i suggest there is a minimum entry fee to help ensure that costs are covered. and if demand reallllllly drops off then they would likely cancel the race anyway
By getting someone to marshal for you , you guarantee yourself a spot in the next Bear race and you also get out of marshaling in CP. Not a bad deal.
You can even use your extra money to hire a marshal for Bear and not give organizers problem of having to look for marshals. Easier than giving organzers the money and then having to find marshals.
You get into the next Bear for helping out, not because you are willing to pay more than some junior with no money.
No smokes, tatoos or cat 4s please.
But will you marshal for me?
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