I noticed that Craig was assigning me more specific winter workouts this year, with lots of drills and intervals instead of just long hours of LSD. I got him on IM and asked him a few quick questions.
<b>AS</b> It seems like LSD these days is faster than it used to be, with so many people using power meters now. You just pedal so much harder on the flats and downhills with a power meter.
<b>CU</b> Yes I think it has sped up, with everyone now using power meters, the information is directly in front of them of how much work they are doing. So people are much more conscious about riding in the correct zones. Back before this, LSD was more of a “feeling” ride.
<b>AS</b> What’s your thinking on weights now?
<b>CU</b> Well the jury is still out. Generally the science suggests that weight training in the gym will not help you on the bike. In fact the Australian Institute of Sport doesn’t prescribe weights to anyone doing events over 1km. I’m not as hardcore as that, I do believe there is a good place for gym work to help prevent injuries and to maintain good body balance. Cycling is a very linear sport, so to do some different exercises during the winter months helps to strengthen areas of the body that don’t normally get used over the summer.
<b>AS</b> I noticed that you’re giving me a lot of cadence-specific drills. What’s the 100+ rpm stuff for?
<b>CU</b> Cadence is very important and is often forgotten about. At the simplest form, we know that power in terms of cycling is force on the pedals multiplied by cadence. So if you want to increase your power, you can either push harder or spin faster…or both. Once the power starts getting high, the amount of force required to push on the pedals at slower cadences is very high and will fatigue someone very quickly. For example, at climbing at 400w output, if you pedal 60rpm, which is common for many people, the force required on the pedal is approximately 170lbs, whereas if you were to pedal at 90rpm the force required is only about 85lbs.170lbs is over a lot of people’s body weight, so you can imagine how quickly that will fatigue someone.
<b>AS</b> There’s also some 60 rpm intervals. What about those?
<b>CU</b> Instead of weights, it is believed that low rpm work can increase your strength endurance on the bike. So by riding low RPM, you increase the force required on the pedals, which then helps your strength endurance. Again, this is a hotly debated topic, those against gym work, will argue that the force required to pedal at 60rpm is not great enough to elicit any physical change. I guess, I’m not 100% in agreement with that.
<b>AS</b> So what does the anti-gym crowd suggest?
<b>CU</b> They think that the strength gained in the gym will not transfer to the bike, so you’re better off working your natural self selected cadence.
<b>AS</b> Should all of winter riding be done at endurance intensity?
<b>CU</b> I don’t think so. I think all energy systems need to be touched and maintained through winter. If you ignore higher intensities, they will become untrained, which is the “use it or lose it theory”. That means when you start your higher intensity training, you would be starting from scratch and spending the season returning to the ability you finished with, as opposed to improving.
<b>AS</b> So what’s your advice for people for the winter, aside from hiring you or Mike?
<b>CU</b> Actually I think people need to work on their endurance zones, and build a solid foundation as we have all learned and read about. At the same time there are huge benefits from your good old Group Ride during the weekend. These rides, perhaps are not the best ‘training’, but definitely help with developing ‘racing’ skills. It is also the perfect time to touch all those energy systems we talked about.
If I add HGH to my program, can I skip the LSD and maybe add some PCP for race days?
Friel has an interesting review of the studies about lifting on his blog.
http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/11/concurrent-strength-and-endurance.html
So does that mean all those guys that you all make fun of for training hard in the off season are actually correct? yeah.
LSD is something completely different than what i’m thinking of, i guess? never heard of that.
long steady distance
There is only one way to improve over the winter, Long Slow Distance. Take it easy, Just put in the miles. There is NO reason to stress the muscles. That’ll just wear you out. Roll up to Nyack, eat a muffin, roll home easy. Miles and smiles. Thats what the pros do.
There is something to the fact that if you dont practice your fast cadence work, you could find yourself behind the 8 ball come march. I translated his advise as stating to keep LSD miles involved but dont lose the leg speed you maintained during the race season because that in and of itself also needs training. no?
That’s definitely what the pros do.
But they do it 25-30 hours per week. If you only have 10 hours, you might want to consider mixing it up. If you have 25-30 plus time for muffins, you might want to consider getting a job.
I would stick to BO’B training plan, which is more time efficient and produces world class resluts.
Drills and intervals during the post season in the northeast ain’t my idea of a good time. Try some cross or even mt biking.
Get a Job Guy turning into New Ride Your Bike Guy, who, of course, is the old They All Dope and Lie Guy
why you gotta talk about dope again?
LSD is for long, slow Danish — the typical Saturday training philosophy in these parts. See Spoon, Runcible
There are some comments from Jonathan Vaughters (when he was on USPS) here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_thread/thread/a8f2a4510435ee4e/3c299dfa4bcfd5b8#3c299dfa4bcfd5b8
The gist, which he wrote in December was “I think i just finished up a whopping 12 hrs of riding last weeks with around 4hrs weightlifting. I suppose I’ll do a couple of 20-25 hr weeks before camp, and then i imagine they’ll drag my butt out for those 30-whatever hour weeks Tyler does.I suppose I don’t much agree with the 6hrs at 100HR deal either, i think that’s the type of riding you do in the season ,between races when you’re tired to do intervals, but have nothing else to do all day.”
A friend of mine was occassionally riding with Tyler Hamilton at the time, and said Hamilton was doing 4-6+ hours every day. Often 6 hours. So Hamilton and Vaughters has radically different approacehs to winter training when on USPS.
I’m not sure how relevant this is to most of us, who do road races of 1 to 3 hours, and crits of 30 to 90 minutes
Long Slow Danish = classic
i have only been doing this for two seasons, but every winter, i seem to get really tired, and I don’t feel like going hard and hammering it forever. even going slow is just tiring. Last winter, i couldn’t keep up with my teammates, who would just leave me behind. Before the first race of the season, i thought i was so weak i shouldn’t even race. And then i did better than them during the season and surprised myself with my good results. I think there’s something to be said for letting the body slow down in the off-season. it’s natural.
There is nothing easy about an endurance ride as prescribed by the these guys. If you have a powermeter and use avg watts, never go over 300 or under 200 and keep that cadence near 90 you will feel it after 2-3 hrs.
determine the wattage I should hold. Maybe going over 200 is tough for me, or, maybe, just maybe, 300 is easy.
when you do an endurance ride the right way you know it.
If you have a powermeter the amount of time you spend at zero power (i.e coasting) tells the tale.
Thats ballpark. A lot of guys go up to Nyack in a group and kill it up the hills and then ride in a draft and coast down the hills anywhere from 0 to 150 watts. Thats a 1/2 hr to hard and 2 1/2 hrs not hard enough.
Put a 27 on and ride the hills under 300 and pedal the entire time downhills and in the wind then get back to me.
I try to keep it around 220 with minimal coasting. It’s surprisingly fast.
so true
Long Steady distance, not to be confused…..with slow.
I’m with Craig on this one, it works for me:
At the same time there are huge benefits from your good old Group Ride during the weekend.
200-300 watts is really not a good message to send to many of the less experienced riders who rely on this site as a sounding board/reality check. For a lot of guys (especially the lighter guys), that range of wattage probably correlates to HR in the range of 125 – 170+. Not exactly an endurance ride. For the rookies out there, just keep your HR in the zone (probably 120 – 135 is fine), keep the pressure on the pedals, and stay hydrated/fueled. Group rides are great to pass the time and put some polish on the high end when you pass through the hills, but don’t expect to get much aerobic benefit if you’re doing a 3 hour ride in a group of 6+ where you’re spending 2/3rds of your time out of the wind with your HR at 105.
Also watts don’t mean s___ if you don’t add in the Kg per body weight. So if you 145lbs this would be alot!
To go by watts you realy need to know the riders max watts to base this on.
On the way to Nyack???
That most people here are completely out of the picture.
Most guys reading this can fit their entire fitness into that 200-300 watts range. they will ride recovery at around 200 and their threshold will be around, or just above 300. So not a good training advice.
The only way to properly and accurately determine your training zones, be it HR, or power, is by doing a lactate test.
And if you are serious about your fitness, stop fishing for advice around, and go see Mike Sherry.
I think that it is a mistake to take anyone else’s training tips/advice too seriously – unless that person happens to be your coach. No one power range or type of training is going to work for everyone. We each have very different bodies that react in very different ways to different types of efforts. Likewise, we each have very different goals for ourselves that require us to train in ways entirely specific to us and no one else. Your teammate may be hammering, but that doesn’t mean you have to. I’m with you 11:17. If you are really serious, either go get tested or hire a coach so you can asses your bodies capabilities and establish the right training zones for you, whether or not you use a power meter.
Lactate testing tells you less than a field test. What one person can do at 4 mmol, another can do at 4+. It is an arbitrary number that tells very little. If you want to know your “threshold”, go see what you can hold for an hour straight. That will give you an exact # to work off of. If your afraid to suffer, you can do all out 20 minute efforts and approximate. Either way the best indicator of ability is performance, not magic tests.
Which is precisely why all pros, that train scientifically heavily rely on lactate testing….
The field test will ONLY tell you what your functional trashold is, and than you guess and calculate all the other training zones. So based on ‘field test advice’ your endurance training zone, which is the zone you spend most time at is only ESTIMATED. It is nothing more than a guess. And could be, just like it was in my case of by as much as 10beats, or 40 watts. Meaning I was not training hard enough. Instead of training my endurance I was doing looong recovery rides.
Lactate test is the only way to get precise training zones provided that the person conducting the test is using the right protocol, and knows what he/she is talking about.
And yes, Mike Sherry is the guy to talk to about this. I know by experience.
Everyone clears lactate the same and can ride continually at the same blood lactate level? And Yes, Andrew Coggan would be the person to speak with about this.
and show my your results, I’d go back to what did not work, since it must be making wonders for you.
thats one intelligent argument. You might be more naturally gifted than me physically, that does not make you right. Oh, you also might not be. AND my dad can beat up your dad, so field testing is the best!
My point was that there is lot of scientific data behind this that you are obviously not aware of, and I also used both approaches, field and LT for, extended periods of time and know which one is better. Have you tried both?
20+ mile hills in MT!!!
there is a significant amount of data that you are not aware of. You forgot to add: FOR ME as in – “and know which one is better” – FOR ME. There is more than one way to reach your potential. I am certainly not intersted in continuing this pissing contest, and understand you have achieved better results from the training methods you are currently using. I am also smart enough to know that Mike Sherry is an extremely intelligent, well-schooled, talented coach as well as a strong rider. I just do not necessarily agree that Lactate testing is a magic formula for improvement that can not be accomplished in the field. Hopefully my genetic potential is such that I will be able to compete against you and then have this conversation at the finish line. I will introduce myself then. Be Well…
…and both worked when I understood the implications of each. Personally, I found the field testing to be considerably more convenient. Is it safe to ass u me that through lactate testing you began to ride at this higher (40W?) effort on your longer rides and got better…IOW, you trained harder and got better? Perhaps,
had you better understood field testing you would have realized you needed to do this and would have achieved equivalent results…perhaps, Sherry is just a better coach that your old one…I will bet you a good coach like Sherry could coach you through either method…there is, however, little $$$ in field testing…I wish you continued success.
There are so many assholes in NYC cycling its laughable.
Everyday another anon “expert” crawls out from under some rock.
you do not know what you are talking about. No one that has a clue is doing recovery at 200w. And even the lightest guy in the area is doing high end work over 300w.
These guys do a lot more than just find that 4mmol power.
A powermeter is useless unless an experienced individual can guide you, its a lot more complicated than finding threshold and estimating your zones.
The key for most guys who do this recreationally is getting the zones right so they can make the most of their available training time and get faster in the most efficient way possible.
Lactate threshold and maximal lactate steady state (MLSS, a.k.a field test) are two different things, zones and training can be based on both, the key is knowing the difference between the two. Which is better can be debated all day. However, field testing is a way to estimate lactate threshold…..
In do not think the CT, MA, VT and RI racers are sitting on a site arguing over how to evaluate watts. They are off racing cross and enjoying the fall and winter. Just ride and have fun. If you do not have talent none of this will matter.
Why aren’t you just riding and having fun rather than sitting on this site telling us not to sit on this site?
Is there another place to get a Lactate threshold test other then Sherry?
I’m pretty sure that riders from these states discuss training methods from time to time.
PS – CX is stupid.
not sure which other local coaches do/have access to lactate testing.
used to rep that portable lactate tester
Which Ruta? There have to be dozens or hundreds of races with Ruta in the name
Yeah, I rode the Tour once. (The Tour de Parc)
http://www.adventurerace.com/web-ruta/index.htm
looks like 42nd on GC
The Ruta sounds like the sort of thing you girls usually get agro over. Everybody who finishes wins?
I think most people here would do better to learn to read a race and race smarter tactically than to obsess about numbers.
Oh yeah and try to have some fun out there. Lord knows there’s plenty of stressful boring crap we all have to deal with off the bike.
First of all, the two things (training with numbers and reading a race) are not mutually exclusive. You can work on both. Secondly, races are easier to read when you’re fitter. Lots of super strong guys come off looking smart.
To put it in perspective, the LA Ruta makes the Kona Iron man look like a 5 lap club race.
My man Francisco Liuzzi does lactate testing.
http://www.nutrifitcycling.com/
La Ruta is like Kona on Enzyte?
I just spent 20 minutes in my BS Threshold.
La Ruta is like the Central Park bridle path on steroids
http://performancelabshc.com/pages.php?id=79
Just my two cents worth, before you even think about doing a lactate test make sure your legs are well rested, otherwise too much lactate will show up in your results mainly effecting your tempo zones and above.
Also I know Robbie ventura of vision quest does lactate testing few times through the season, as your body changes through season on what your capable of.
Can testify to Mike sherry for testing also Zoltan from zoltan training is great too, make sure you get it done with someone who has good rep otherwise a bad coach could set you up with the wrong zones and you could be completely killing your body before the season even starts.
Another good source for info regarding power is allen from saris powertap, he knows his stuff inside out and actually does not push it on you too much either, they recommended to me that you try to get used to your listening to your body first before getting obessed with powermeters and HRM.
I believe its actually a good idea to do some leg workouts and other other endurance work on say rowing machines, elliptical machines or running, breaks it up a little and exercises and strengthens muscles that might not get used otherwise so much.
Enjoy the winter training and stay warm.
I take pills to deal with my lactose thereshold
Can’t go wrong with Mike Sherry or Zoltan.
Are there pills for the bends?
Cadence does LT testing and has Chad Butts, an exercise physiologist, doing most of the testing.
I stick with LT testing rather than outdoor “field” methods, mostly because Im afraid of long efforts. And bears and such that live OUT THERE. Plus, sitting on a trainer with wires and shit all connected to me is wicked pro.
Finally someone with valid reasons for LT testing.
Step tests are really quite inaccurate as only a very small percentage of the population show any real point of deflection. And what is the magic number? 2.2, 4.0, 6.0 ? A steady state lactate test is really more useful but who is going to spend 2 hours with you doing a lactate test and are you willing to pay for it. There are better and simpler ways of establishing your correct training intensities.
Most lactate testing is really just a revenue stream for coaches/ facilities that is more smoke and mirror than cold hard ex-phys fact.
go RF
YO RIDE YOUR BIKES AND STOP THE PUSSY talk. Power this Hr this yo ride your bike and you’ll come good! From someone who rides…..COME JOIN ME IN THE COLD!
their is something called feel….try using it…it’s overlooked.
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/13705.0.html
where will it end?
are you really surprised?
be happy that the clowns who are taking shit are getting caught and exposed as the pathetic cheats they are.
…influence watts. Anyone?
better for field testing or lactate testing?
it’s a female hormone, better for lactate. this is getting weird
if people are not going to post their names in discussions regarding science, they either a). don’t know what they are talking about and therefore don’t want to be identified or b). are just lifting their quotes from the web somewhere and don’t really understand the theory behind it.
Anyway … better ways to establish your training intensities … the best indicator or performance is performance itself. If you want to find out what your mean maximal power is over 30 mins. Ride for 30 mins flat out and I’d say what ever the number tells is is exactly what you can do. You can then base your training intensities off that. Simple really, no interpretation needed.
GREG WHO MAN!!!!!??????last name please?
Or dose everyone know who greg is?
Greg Tool
Why 30 minutes and not 5 minutes or an hour….what does 30 minutes tell us exactly. Could a 30 minute test be skewed by a person’s Anaerobic work capacity? Do you make assumptions about efficiency? 30 minutes is not an FTP test….. and not even Andy Coogan will endorse that as the best way to test. Would you use Pave or Pnorm as the magic number? How much would you discount that number to make it relevant to FTP? 5%? 10%? I’d recommend that you trust the data but verify it, whatever method you use.
don’t know what you are talking about
Coggan you really are addicted to the internet! Seek help – not online.
Just an FYI: this is my first (and only) comment posted here.
Just an FYI: this is my first (and only) comment posted here.
He saved a good friend of mine on Col de Madeleine. He knows what he’s talking about.
He saved a good friend of mine on Col de Madeleine. He knows what he’s talking about.
Just an FYI: this is my first (and only) comment posted here.
Just an FYI: this is my first (and only) comment posted here.
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=reu-sponsorshipdeutschetelekom_urgent&prov=reuters&type=lgns
Coggan you really are addicted to the internet! Seek help – not online.
don’t know what you are talking about
Why 30 minutes and not 5 minutes or an hour….what does 30 minutes tell us exactly. Could a 30 minute test be skewed by a person’s Anaerobic work capacity? Do you make assumptions about efficiency? 30 minutes is not an FTP test….. and not even Andy Coogan will endorse that as the best way to test. Would you use Pave or Pnorm as the magic number? How much would you discount that number to make it relevant to FTP? 5%? 10%? I’d recommend that you trust the data but verify it, whatever method you use.
Greg Tool
Lemond?
GREG WHO MAN!!!!!??????last name please?
Or dose everyone know who greg is?
if people are not going to post their names in discussions regarding science, they either a). don’t know what they are talking about and therefore don’t want to be identified or b). are just lifting their quotes from the web somewhere and don’t really understand the theory behind it.
Anyway … better ways to establish your training intensities … the best indicator or performance is performance itself. If you want to find out what your mean maximal power is over 30 mins. Ride for 30 mins flat out and I’d say what ever the number tells is is exactly what you can do. You can then base your training intensities off that. Simple really, no interpretation needed.
…influence watts. Anyone?
better for field testing or lactate testing?
it’s a female hormone, better for lactate. this is getting weird
are you really surprised?
be happy that the clowns who are taking shit are getting caught and exposed as the pathetic cheats they are.
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/13705.0.html
where will it end?
their is something called feel….try using it…it’s overlooked.
go RF
YO RIDE YOUR BIKES AND STOP THE PUSSY talk. Power this Hr this yo ride your bike and you’ll come good! From someone who rides…..COME JOIN ME IN THE COLD!
google “monod cycling”
Might be misleading in finding thresholds, but can be nice to find at what levels you’ve improved. I like a simple step test as a warmup before intervals on a trainer.
It is true that a some percentage of the population does not have a HEART RATE deflection but the lactate test will (usually) show a curve. It is not linear in response and will show up as a curve in a properly done test on a motivated subject. There is no magic number for sure but the test is easily repeatable and it is the accumulation of data that gives the test the most value. A field test is also good and there is no harm done in actually doing both the lactate test and a field test to corroborate the testing data.
While points on the curve (2, 4… 14.4) can be interesting and somewhat useful to a skilled coach, it is often the shape of the curve overall that is looked at for insight. The goal of much of our training is to pull those points to the right on the curve, so there is less “cost” to riding hard.
There are lots of ways to skin a cat and one is not more right than the other….
“There are better and simpler ways of establishing your correct training intensities”
like what?
Step tests are really quite inaccurate as only a very small percentage of the population show any real point of deflection. And what is the magic number? 2.2, 4.0, 6.0 ? A steady state lactate test is really more useful but who is going to spend 2 hours with you doing a lactate test and are you willing to pay for it. There are better and simpler ways of establishing your correct training intensities.
Most lactate testing is really just a revenue stream for coaches/ facilities that is more smoke and mirror than cold hard ex-phys fact.
Finally someone with valid reasons for LT testing.
I stick with LT testing rather than outdoor “field” methods, mostly because Im afraid of long efforts. And bears and such that live OUT THERE. Plus, sitting on a trainer with wires and shit all connected to me is wicked pro.
Cadence does LT testing and has Chad Butts, an exercise physiologist, doing most of the testing.
Can’t go wrong with Mike Sherry or Zoltan.
Are there pills for the bends?
I take pills to deal with my lactose thereshold
Just my two cents worth, before you even think about doing a lactate test make sure your legs are well rested, otherwise too much lactate will show up in your results mainly effecting your tempo zones and above.
Also I know Robbie ventura of vision quest does lactate testing few times through the season, as your body changes through season on what your capable of.
Can testify to Mike sherry for testing also Zoltan from zoltan training is great too, make sure you get it done with someone who has good rep otherwise a bad coach could set you up with the wrong zones and you could be completely killing your body before the season even starts.
Another good source for info regarding power is allen from saris powertap, he knows his stuff inside out and actually does not push it on you too much either, they recommended to me that you try to get used to your listening to your body first before getting obessed with powermeters and HRM.
I believe its actually a good idea to do some leg workouts and other other endurance work on say rowing machines, elliptical machines or running, breaks it up a little and exercises and strengthens muscles that might not get used otherwise so much.
Enjoy the winter training and stay warm.
La Ruta is like Kona on Enzyte?
I just spent 20 minutes in my BS Threshold.
La Ruta is like the Central Park bridle path on steroids
http://performancelabshc.com/pages.php?id=79
The Ruta sounds like the sort of thing you girls usually get agro over. Everybody who finishes wins?
I think most people here would do better to learn to read a race and race smarter tactically than to obsess about numbers.
Oh yeah and try to have some fun out there. Lord knows there’s plenty of stressful boring crap we all have to deal with off the bike.
First of all, the two things (training with numbers and reading a race) are not mutually exclusive. You can work on both. Secondly, races are easier to read when you’re fitter. Lots of super strong guys come off looking smart.
To put it in perspective, the LA Ruta makes the Kona Iron man look like a 5 lap club race.
My man Francisco Liuzzi does lactate testing.
http://www.nutrifitcycling.com/
http://www.adventurerace.com/web-ruta/index.htm
looks like 42nd on GC
Which Ruta? There have to be dozens or hundreds of races with Ruta in the name
Yeah, I rode the Tour once. (The Tour de Parc)
used to rep that portable lactate tester
not sure which other local coaches do/have access to lactate testing.
I’m pretty sure that riders from these states discuss training methods from time to time.
PS – CX is stupid.
Is there another place to get a Lactate threshold test other then Sherry?
Who is Rufus P?
And why does every debate on this site turn so ugly? You people are pathetic.
Is doing well in the Ruta and is currently in the top 50 on GC. Great effort in a stupid hard race. We need an interview.
Hopefully … I will be able to compete against you and then have this conversation at the finish line. I will introduce myself then. Be Well…
Why aren’t you just riding and having fun rather than sitting on this site telling us not to sit on this site?
In do not think the CT, MA, VT and RI racers are sitting on a site arguing over how to evaluate watts. They are off racing cross and enjoying the fall and winter. Just ride and have fun. If you do not have talent none of this will matter.
Lactate threshold and maximal lactate steady state (MLSS, a.k.a field test) are two different things, zones and training can be based on both, the key is knowing the difference between the two. Which is better can be debated all day. However, field testing is a way to estimate lactate threshold…..
These guys do a lot more than just find that 4mmol power.
A powermeter is useless unless an experienced individual can guide you, its a lot more complicated than finding threshold and estimating your zones.
The key for most guys who do this recreationally is getting the zones right so they can make the most of their available training time and get faster in the most efficient way possible.
There are so many assholes in NYC cycling its laughable.
Everyday another anon “expert” crawls out from under some rock.
you do not know what you are talking about. No one that has a clue is doing recovery at 200w. And even the lightest guy in the area is doing high end work over 300w.
…and both worked when I understood the implications of each. Personally, I found the field testing to be considerably more convenient. Is it safe to ass u me that through lactate testing you began to ride at this higher (40W?) effort on your longer rides and got better…IOW, you trained harder and got better? Perhaps,
had you better understood field testing you would have realized you needed to do this and would have achieved equivalent results…perhaps, Sherry is just a better coach that your old one…I will bet you a good coach like Sherry could coach you through either method…there is, however, little $$$ in field testing…I wish you continued success.
there is a significant amount of data that you are not aware of. You forgot to add: FOR ME as in – “and know which one is better” – FOR ME. There is more than one way to reach your potential. I am certainly not intersted in continuing this pissing contest, and understand you have achieved better results from the training methods you are currently using. I am also smart enough to know that Mike Sherry is an extremely intelligent, well-schooled, talented coach as well as a strong rider. I just do not necessarily agree that Lactate testing is a magic formula for improvement that can not be accomplished in the field. Hopefully my genetic potential is such that I will be able to compete against you and then have this conversation at the finish line. I will introduce myself then. Be Well…
20+ mile hills in MT!!!
My point was that there is lot of scientific data behind this that you are obviously not aware of, and I also used both approaches, field and LT for, extended periods of time and know which one is better. Have you tried both?
and show my your results, I’d go back to what did not work, since it must be making wonders for you.
thats one intelligent argument. You might be more naturally gifted than me physically, that does not make you right. Oh, you also might not be. AND my dad can beat up your dad, so field testing is the best!
Everyone clears lactate the same and can ride continually at the same blood lactate level? And Yes, Andrew Coggan would be the person to speak with about this.
I try to keep it around 220 with minimal coasting. It’s surprisingly fast.
so true
Long Steady distance, not to be confused…..with slow.
I’m with Craig on this one, it works for me:
At the same time there are huge benefits from your good old Group Ride during the weekend.
200-300 watts is really not a good message to send to many of the less experienced riders who rely on this site as a sounding board/reality check. For a lot of guys (especially the lighter guys), that range of wattage probably correlates to HR in the range of 125 – 170+. Not exactly an endurance ride. For the rookies out there, just keep your HR in the zone (probably 120 – 135 is fine), keep the pressure on the pedals, and stay hydrated/fueled. Group rides are great to pass the time and put some polish on the high end when you pass through the hills, but don’t expect to get much aerobic benefit if you’re doing a 3 hour ride in a group of 6+ where you’re spending 2/3rds of your time out of the wind with your HR at 105.
Also watts don’t mean s___ if you don’t add in the Kg per body weight. So if you 145lbs this would be alot!
To go by watts you realy need to know the riders max watts to base this on.
On the way to Nyack???
That most people here are completely out of the picture.
Most guys reading this can fit their entire fitness into that 200-300 watts range. they will ride recovery at around 200 and their threshold will be around, or just above 300. So not a good training advice.
The only way to properly and accurately determine your training zones, be it HR, or power, is by doing a lactate test.
And if you are serious about your fitness, stop fishing for advice around, and go see Mike Sherry.
I think that it is a mistake to take anyone else’s training tips/advice too seriously – unless that person happens to be your coach. No one power range or type of training is going to work for everyone. We each have very different bodies that react in very different ways to different types of efforts. Likewise, we each have very different goals for ourselves that require us to train in ways entirely specific to us and no one else. Your teammate may be hammering, but that doesn’t mean you have to. I’m with you 11:17. If you are really serious, either go get tested or hire a coach so you can asses your bodies capabilities and establish the right training zones for you, whether or not you use a power meter.
Lactate testing tells you less than a field test. What one person can do at 4 mmol, another can do at 4+. It is an arbitrary number that tells very little. If you want to know your “threshold”, go see what you can hold for an hour straight. That will give you an exact # to work off of. If your afraid to suffer, you can do all out 20 minute efforts and approximate. Either way the best indicator of ability is performance, not magic tests.
Which is precisely why all pros, that train scientifically heavily rely on lactate testing….
The field test will ONLY tell you what your functional trashold is, and than you guess and calculate all the other training zones. So based on ‘field test advice’ your endurance training zone, which is the zone you spend most time at is only ESTIMATED. It is nothing more than a guess. And could be, just like it was in my case of by as much as 10beats, or 40 watts. Meaning I was not training hard enough. Instead of training my endurance I was doing looong recovery rides.
Lactate test is the only way to get precise training zones provided that the person conducting the test is using the right protocol, and knows what he/she is talking about.
And yes, Mike Sherry is the guy to talk to about this. I know by experience.
Thats ballpark. A lot of guys go up to Nyack in a group and kill it up the hills and then ride in a draft and coast down the hills anywhere from 0 to 150 watts. Thats a 1/2 hr to hard and 2 1/2 hrs not hard enough.
Put a 27 on and ride the hills under 300 and pedal the entire time downhills and in the wind then get back to me.
when you do an endurance ride the right way you know it.
If you have a powermeter the amount of time you spend at zero power (i.e coasting) tells the tale.
determine the wattage I should hold. Maybe going over 200 is tough for me, or, maybe, just maybe, 300 is easy.
There is nothing easy about an endurance ride as prescribed by the these guys. If you have a powermeter and use avg watts, never go over 300 or under 200 and keep that cadence near 90 you will feel it after 2-3 hrs.
i have only been doing this for two seasons, but every winter, i seem to get really tired, and I don’t feel like going hard and hammering it forever. even going slow is just tiring. Last winter, i couldn’t keep up with my teammates, who would just leave me behind. Before the first race of the season, i thought i was so weak i shouldn’t even race. And then i did better than them during the season and surprised myself with my good results. I think there’s something to be said for letting the body slow down in the off-season. it’s natural.
Long Slow Danish = classic
There are some comments from Jonathan Vaughters (when he was on USPS) here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_thread/thread/a8f2a4510435ee4e/3c299dfa4bcfd5b8#3c299dfa4bcfd5b8
The gist, which he wrote in December was “I think i just finished up a whopping 12 hrs of riding last weeks with around 4hrs weightlifting. I suppose I’ll do a couple of 20-25 hr weeks before camp, and then i imagine they’ll drag my butt out for those 30-whatever hour weeks Tyler does.I suppose I don’t much agree with the 6hrs at 100HR deal either, i think that’s the type of riding you do in the season ,between races when you’re tired to do intervals, but have nothing else to do all day.”
A friend of mine was occassionally riding with Tyler Hamilton at the time, and said Hamilton was doing 4-6+ hours every day. Often 6 hours. So Hamilton and Vaughters has radically different approacehs to winter training when on USPS.
I’m not sure how relevant this is to most of us, who do road races of 1 to 3 hours, and crits of 30 to 90 minutes
why you gotta talk about dope again?
LSD is for long, slow Danish — the typical Saturday training philosophy in these parts. See Spoon, Runcible
Drills and intervals during the post season in the northeast ain’t my idea of a good time. Try some cross or even mt biking.
Get a Job Guy turning into New Ride Your Bike Guy, who, of course, is the old They All Dope and Lie Guy
I would stick to BO’B training plan, which is more time efficient and produces world class resluts.
That’s definitely what the pros do.
But they do it 25-30 hours per week. If you only have 10 hours, you might want to consider mixing it up. If you have 25-30 plus time for muffins, you might want to consider getting a job.
There is something to the fact that if you dont practice your fast cadence work, you could find yourself behind the 8 ball come march. I translated his advise as stating to keep LSD miles involved but dont lose the leg speed you maintained during the race season because that in and of itself also needs training. no?
There is only one way to improve over the winter, Long Slow Distance. Take it easy, Just put in the miles. There is NO reason to stress the muscles. That’ll just wear you out. Roll up to Nyack, eat a muffin, roll home easy. Miles and smiles. Thats what the pros do.
If I add HGH to my program, can I skip the LSD and maybe add some PCP for race days?
Friel has an interesting review of the studies about lifting on his blog.
http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/11/concurrent-strength-and-endurance.html
So does that mean all those guys that you all make fun of for training hard in the off season are actually correct? yeah.
LSD is something completely different than what i’m thinking of, i guess? never heard of that.
long steady distance
long slow distance