Section head text.
February is the deadest month in cycling. We’re a week away from The Tour of California, and we’ve just finished the Tom Boonen Qatar sprint series. There’s been some subjects simmering in other areas that we’ll just throw together here.
Is it abuse to suggest that juniors should try to get into cycling? Should you delay a career as a hamster in a habitrail by being a low level “pro”?
Should schmalz parlay his NYC ladies’ sprint championship into valuable prizes?
And powercranks really really work, right?
…and T. Marszalek
xoxo
8:35, I left my ESP kit at the office, so it’s difficult to read your mind.
yeah. exactly.
…and Gavi
xoxo
seems like this PR fellow has quite the love affair with mr. joao. Failed to mention he lost to a Junior and a meathead in the crit.
…our Portuguese Brooklynite also got 3rd in the crit:
http://www.wmrc.org/vos/2008/cr.htm
…and Gavi got 2nd a few days ago:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/2008/feb08/belize08/belize084
…sorry, it was 5th.
And it was the Valley of the Sun road race.
cold clock ? then again bearing in mind Connor’s homophobic rant earlier…
http://www.wmrc.org/vos/2008/rr.htm
Well I guess Connor should watch out for the cold cock. Just expect to get punched in the head.
Is Sugarpants Jenkins related to Buttermilk Jones? I miss that B. Jones character.
Looks like he won stage 2 (of Valley of Sun Race) in the Cat 3 race. Fantastic!
Looks like he won stage 2 in the Cat 3 race. Fantastic!
learn the important stuff young men:
http://www.chainreaction.com/tdf05shades.htm
You’re saying that a guy is who very outspoken, rode for a few years on a small pro team, won a national championship, has raced the Philly pro championships, won a stage in a national tour (the Tour of Ireland), has a successful life-time business related to cycling, was instrumental in building up one of the strongest regional clubs, has a cult following, a cute/smart wife and a degree from a good college is a bad example for Connor to follow in terms of being outspoken because he got cold-cocked once after a race.
Hmmmm.. okay dokay. seems kind nutty to me, but is that your point?
http://www.kenpapai.com/cycling/rbr/adamsStitches.html
…who had (and still does have) a reputation for running at the mouth. It got him into some trouble…
Mr Sallee has a remarkably similar disposition, it will serve him well in some things, less so in others.
the internet is like driving, we are safe and anonymous behind the windshields of our computers. some honk, others press their asses to the glass, most just drive on by.
I don’t think there’s a connection between his attitude and that injury. 10:53, do you have different information? Or are you just supposing?
Speaking of local juniors, check this out
http://www.cyclingnews.com/newsphotos.php?id=/photos/2008/news/feb08/feb16news2/Cipollini
bravo on several of your word choices, including braggadoccio. internet fora was particularly good. (careful, though; don’t make the same mistake with octopus.)
To my homeboy Mark Paul “Saved by the Bell” Gossalaar for representing in the cat 2 race
Hey Big Parody Hater, here’s Zmolik:
http://www.velocitynation.com/slideshow/1946/51.jpg
Duh.
I feel sorry for Mark Paul “Saved by the Bell” Gossalaar.
that shiat sounds racist to me
wtf!???
Nice job to Todd M of Sommerville at the race. Keep up the good work.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that
Discuss
The name “Empire Cycling” sounds very gay
What about Valley of the Sun? Where was Zmolik. He gets an article on NYVelocity and now he’s a prima donna who doesn’t even have to start that TTT. Like I said, that team is going to explode. The cracks have started already!T!T!T! Can’t wait. THey are GOINg dowN
Also cool that Rashad is out there in the cat 2s. Nice result.
Empire got 4th in the Valley of the Sun TT
http://www.wmrc.org/vos/2008/tt.htm
NY Velocity: Lovefest ’08
addiction perhaps?
What exactly are the rules here for posts being removed? Apparently anything dealing with homosexuality is not allowed.
I don’t know, Everyone seems to teabag Harris around here.
i bet connor is looking at this site right now even though he said he is no longer checking, but he’s got an addition to it methinks
Shouldn’t doesn’t mean they aren’t. And what other aspects would a director look for in a junior?
thats too bad…..we were all kinda hoping you would.
Developing riders shouldn’t be judged solely by their results. Improvements can be measured in other ways. Eventually they’ll need to look toward winning as an objective (and it should definitely be practiced), but there’s a proper time and place for it in the scope of development.
Oh, and Mr. 2:41– no I won’t, and thank you very much.
Respect Schmaltz?
“Were he more tactful and respectful, he would be getting a whole lot more support and less bashing.”
This site is primarily a bashfest to anyone that signs their name – so the less bashing comment was pretty much fantasy. Seriously, I’ve read Hatch bashing, Saul bashing, Zmolick bashing, Alba bashing, lee bashing etc…no one respects anyone here except for Schmalz, Alex, and Andy. It surprises me that many of you can look each other in the face on race weekend.
this site is freakin’ awesome: i love coming home from a ride and instead of turning on the TV, I turn on the computer and read this site: it’s better than a reality TV show.
The best part: it’s better for my recovery than TV according to a study and I wear a helmet doing it.
I think posting a little off the cuff with a certain amount of braggadiccio AND signing one’s own name is inherently more classy than anonymous whining and “advice”
this site is freakin’ awesome: i love coming home from a ride and instead of turning on the TV, I turn on the computer and read this site: it’s better than a reality TV show.
The best part: it’s better for my recovery than TV according to a study and I wear a helmet doing it.
http://connorsallee.com/pictures.html
looks like you can go after him. bottom photo.
legally…
this site is such a waste of time. it’s one of the worst things i’ve seen on the internet in a while, it’s disgusting.
go ahead, consider yourselves all high and mighty because you can run your freakin adult gears, and cat 4 cubicle wonders telling others how to ride a bike and get somewhere with it.
sorry if i directly insulted anyone on here, i’m outta here.
The best at 17 or 18 aren’t necessarily the best as mature athletes. In most cases they are not.
Some of you guys are putting way too much on how you do as a 17 or 18 year old.
adm – thank you, i’ll attempt to work on it.
12:11 – (please excuse my language for this one, everyone)
… how DARE you, you asshole – not only is that a new level of immaturity, but it’s insulting. if you’re going to make fun of someone, you tell it to their face, you don’t hide behind a no-name post, you little bitch. tell me your name immediately, because if you’re going to insult my family’s name, i WILL fight you and embarrass you.. i won’t stand for that sh*t.
I don’t think anyone told Connor not to try, it was more along the lines of being realistic about it. Devin may have burned out/or just had better things to do last year, but he was a 1 by the time he was 18.
As far as arguing that results don’t matter Eugene, pro teams don’t pick you up because you’re a nice guy. You get noticed for your results. They do matter. The sport is a business, a fucked up one at that, but its still a business, and you get hired based on your qualifications. If you have none, you don’t get a job.
Eugene. Just stop talking. you are an idiot.
Connor’s probably stuck with CRCA for his last year of junior racing. Not so bad considering that he’ll get to go to all of the same major races as Hot Tubes. Finding a good training group in your local area and having opportunities to race is more important at 18. I’ve also heard horror stories of Hot Tubes burnout.
No he’s not going to be a pro at 19. I don’t think that’s the plan and I’m surprised Armand isn’t encouraging Connor to develop in college.
this will get taken the wrong way no doubt (not by ADM I’m sure but others) but don’t you sometimes wish Armand had been your big brother growing up – and that shouldn’t be interpreted by 12.11 in a bad way.
12:11 is a new low. Come on, Andy.
Here’s some more unsolicited advice for CS. You’re not going to get to the pro ranks from the CRCA Dev Team. At some point in the not too distant future you’re going to have ride with a more significant/influential team. Those teams have few spots and, because all of their riders are very good, they don’t just look at results. Take Hot Tubes for example. They want guys who mind their pleases & thankyous and don’t have reputations as being (as you put it) a “snot who runs his mouth”.
Your enthusiasm and spirit are great. I hope you make it. But working on your riding alone isn’t going to be enough. You should consider working on your image. It’s a ridiculously small community. The things you say on boards like this might come back to haunt you. People will judge you on your character as much as your results.
Is he doing collegiate races too — that’s a good framework to ramp up a riders ability. The races are early and they hit the season hard. Connor sould probably consider schools that have good racing programs – in the Northeast that includes West Point, UMass, Rutgers, UVM, Princeton, Columbia, Harvard, UNH, Yale and probably lots of others. But I can think of riders who came through all those schools racing teams who got to cat 1 at least and maybe pro. There are surely others.
When I were a lad…..Different sport but similar goals to connor and I like to think I was a little more mature than Connor is being right now – but guess what ? when “we” were that age there was no such thing as internet boards – so lets not condemn youthful enthusiasm out of hand.
I remember watching Coe in the 84 Olympics then going out and coming 4th or something in the regional u.15 800m but still being 100% convinced that with determination and perceverance I’d be on the Olympic stage one day. Didn’t get within an arse’s roar of course, but dreaming back then was great and shouldn’t never be discouraged. Take the criticism Connor and run with it!
to 7:11 am – I agree that Ben Showman is a very good rider, but he’s going to a higher calling – he’s at the West Point Military Academy so he’ll have to serve time in the Armed Forces upon graduation – he’s a good kid and very polite – I give him tremendous credit for racing well and dealing with the rigors of West Point and military training.
If there are two Ben Showman’s and this isn’t the one your talking about, then…oh well.
Strangly, his results were far better than connor’s. But as connor say’s, results don’t matter under 18. Why bother racing until you’re 18 then?
I happen to agree that it’s doubtful Connor can turn pro, but some of you seem to get your jollies saying so.
Let him try. If he doesn’t make it, and hasn’t ruled out other things in life, so what? That sort of journey is admirable.
Telling him to be realistic is one thing. Telling him to not try is lame.
You should probably check Carters results for 06 http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?compid=222644
carter is a good friend. he sent me all his powertap files, and showed me what he was doing. he was 18 last year, just as i will be this year, and i’m working just as hard as he is this winter. he had a mediocre 17th year too, just as i did.
Keep trying and training hard but your time is running out. A guy like Carter Jones won the Battenkill Cat 3 last year while you were farting around in the junior field at 16mph -yes that feild was pathetically slow. Carter is now on the USA devo team I think. If you want to make it to the next level you need to start dominating Cat 3 races in the spring and upgrading to 2 and dominating the 2s by summer. Dont see you kicking ass of guys like Ben Showman or Nick Bruno anytime soon and they are not even the top 2s in the NE.
Good luck but it looks like you are on the track that most of have – racing for fun.
sure, reveal my results, no name! they essentially mean nothing when you’re under 18. like eugene said, there is a period in life where certain athletic means can be reached, where in other times they cannot be reached. from what i’ve seen, that time is about 19-24, and then you build on that base you create in that time later in your career.
anyway, i don’t have much else to say, but i will say that i speak my mind, that is all. i don’t really care if you think of me as a “snot who runs his mouth,” because that’s what i am! hah! and i really enjoy pushing some buttons here and there. so what? if you feel the need to tell everyone that you aren’t donating to the team, you probably wouldn’t have anyway, especially if you feel the need to tell people what you do with your money.
AND anyone who’s helping me out on here, you’re great. i’ll help you out sometime if i can.
a heap of tired advice from a batch of old kooks, and some of you aren’t even that old. go for it kid.
Like someone said before, Connor’s results aren’t too convincing to forecast or suggest a career as professional.
http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?compid=210129&all=1
Connor, take your arrogant attitude and join the douchebags who party in the meatmarket district clubs.
vs. Homer
or is it Squidworm vs. Partick
Look im a Jr and nothing for nothing all I can say is ur right not everyone can make it but i believe that all you need is passion to make it, you see alot of naturaly good jrs quite cause they get bored or they cant handle the pressure. Also as a adult woulnt u rather see kids wasting there life on something that will keep them fit then wasting there life partying and geting fat. Honestly im glad i waste my life on this sport and if i dont make it i dont but needless to say im going to enjoy everylast bit of it trying.
By the way I have a back up plan and to say ur going to go pro is pretty dam bold just do to the fact ur competing agenst the whole world not just america. Also please dont make a fool of all the other jrs with stupidity and arguing.
I think Connor and the other junior riders will achieve whatever they want to. There’s beauty in their position: that their true potential is completely unknown, and that they’re full of youthful optimism. Truly beautiful.
“this kid is not a good ambassador for the jr cause.”
He thinks independently, acts bravely (signing his name), and is afraid of no one– what did you expect from an athlete?! If you’re looking for passivity, support the chess club.
“…i could care less”
That means you care. I’m glad.
Yeah, posting anonomusly is like wearing a helmet when you ride your bike, it’s just safer.
Maybe the kids should follow your standard of behaviour: lame anonymous posting
No names and no one gets hurt. Signing your name just puts you in the crosshairs.
and no names. You’re cowards. Picking on the youth. Cowards….
what, you didn’t do crazy shit as a kid?
go for it connor
How long do you people think echappeonline.com will stay in business?
i don’t think anyone on this site cares if this kid makes it or not. not really the point…the point is that he represents his jr development team and he is doing a shitty job of it. I have not given to the jr development squad (i didn’t really realize what it was until the most recent roller race fund raiser by schmalz et al) but listening (reading, technically) to this little snot run his mouth on this site make me not want to support this team in the future (to the detriment of those teammates that might be worth supporting)…
that’s the point
I don’t believe in him. Its not in the cards. Enjoy cycling for what it is, a hobby. whats wrong with that?
Everyone likes to think of themselves as greater than they may be. What is wrong with dreaming? If you reach for the stars then you might touch the sky.
Lets give this kid some encouragement.
Connor, I believe in you. You have all the time in the world, make the best of it because it flies away with lightening speed. Enjoy whatever you do and be prepared to suffer the consequenses if you don’t follow sound advice…(train hard, stay focused, and definitely consider college sooner than later).
Whatever you do make it Pro As Sh*t!
Seems like there are a lot of unhappy cyclists here. Unhappy that they didn’t discover the joy of cycling at a younger age, unhappy that they work at a desk job ( albeit making loads of money but really contributing nothing to the world ) and unhappy that some little punk is talking smack to them and could probably rip their legs off.
So what if this kid has a mouth and an attitude he’s not too unlike most of the ‘adults’ on this site.
If he wants to try his hand at going Pro let him try. If he fails so what, at least he tried and can live the rest of his life knowing that he actually gave it a shot.
Please do not let him end up another banker or lawyer or similar, sitting behind a desk spouting advice about things they know nothing about and telling everybody how good they could have been if they were just given the chance.
Out of all the people who read this site and have been Pro sportsman I don’t think you’d find one who would trade their experiences for a ‘real’ job in a glass tower.
Keep it real kid, but never stop chasing your dreams, don’t compromise, you’ll regret it and end up bitter and twisted like most of those who frequent this site.
I need help… Can someone tell me why Congress is involved in investigating Roger Clemens? Why not investigate Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton… shouldn’t USADA be investigating him instead…
Just did a little USAC lookup on this Connor Salle fellow…..Mediocre at best junior.
As a junior Hincapie was lighting it up against elite adults. Thats what it takes, not a couple top 10s here and there in junior races.
Generally, getting your 2 or 1 upgrade is a humbling experience, when you realize that real bike racing is far harder than the shit show that is a cat 3 “race”.
The Beaver should be getting home from school soon.
pro as shit? what does that entail?
Why doesn’t anyone realize, being pro in the US totally blows. You’d be better off racing as a 1 on a good elite team that has good sponsorship. Lisbon gets more as an amateur than he ever would as a pro.
And Connor, when you upgrade to a 1, and you can race me, then you can consider talking shit, that is, if you aren’t totally blown out. But I have a feeling either, you will never make it that far, and if you do, by that time you’ll realize you aren’t actually that good.
This is boring.
Connor is a bike racer not an ambassador. Why hold him to standards that not many on this site can meet?
In the end, the legs do the talking.
because most on this site aren’t asking the rest of the community to support their cycling!
All of this hazing is unnecessary. What ever happened to the high road.
“just seems like he’s doing more to hurt jrs than help by mouthing off to the cycling community that is asked to help his group out with donations.”
12:57 probably never gave any money and uses lame excuses like this.
Just because someone speaks his mind (however naive (at times) doesn’t mean he’s not deserving…who are we to judge? Didn’t you want the same recognition in your youth?
Lead by example!
OK, that was a bit over the top, but give the kid some realistic encouragemnet
this kid is not a good ambassador for the jr cause. maybe he’s good enough maybe he isn’t. i could care less. just seems like he’s doing more to hurt jrs than help by mouthing off to the cycling community that is asked to help his group out with donations.
A UCI Continental Team is made up of a minimum of 8 riders and a maximum of 16. To be registered with USA Cycling, the majority of the riders must be US Citizens. The majority of the riders must also have a racing age of less than 28. All riders on the team must have a road category 1. If you have foreign riders on your team that are licensed by another federation, they must have their federation
“There is an age limit for riders that a domestic team can pick up,”
11:48 – what is that limit? Do you know?
I personally doubt Connor is going to make it to pro but as long as he doesn’t rule out other options in life by trying, what’s the harm in trying? That sort of focus is cool and should be applauded. Hopes he goes to college too (at least starting college soon after high school), learns at the rate he wants, challenges himself in cycling and goes far in life.
“so shut up, you nameless, disgruntled old man.”
yes
to be exact … hmmm bold statement.
AT and LT are not the same thing, so you can’t sometimes refer to one as the other.
And if lactic acid makes the muscles burn and stops them from working why doesn’t it effect your heart? it’s a muscle, right?
don’t know connor, never met him but at least he’s being “annoying” by being full of himself (that’s a good thing) instead of putting others down and whining
don’t care how old he is…just think he’s an @$$hole…
connor = new “tail lights”
am i the only one that wants to smack this kid?
You’re all a bunch of self righteous know-it-alls always quick to jump on anyone who doesn’t follow the party line.
Are you jealous of his youth? Are you intimidated by his carefree attitude?
This is the same attitude that will be our downfall. So what if you have raced for however many years, it means nothing to 98% of society. Get off you pedestal and stop hating..
that was a good article, by the way.
11:48, i appreciate the help and honestly, but please give me your phone number, so that i can call you when i’m pro as shit.
Here’s an article about balancing school with sport by the head of the US National Cross Country Ski Team. Don’t let the photos put you off if you’re not into skiing (though they are all of world class or soon-to-be world class athletes) — read the text and maybe follow the links to other reading:
http://www.teamtoday.org/Stories/tabid/391/ctl/Details/mid/763/ItemID/993/Default.aspx
Connor vs. Schmaltz in the 2008 female sprint championship cage match.
Discuss.
just because i’m a junior doesn’t make me stupid, nor does it disable me from talking on here.
you’re acting like a bunch of girls who won’t let boys into their forts, in MAYBE 2nd grade. i just hope you know that.
Hate to break it to you, you gotta be ultra serious as a junior to get to the position where you will get picked up. There is an age limit for riders that a domestic team can pick up, and if you haven’t laid the groundwork, its over. Thats just how it works. Late in life bloomers come about once and a while, but they come and go from 5 to 1 in a season, they ain’t messing around in the 3s. Just accept your lot in life.
1:29:00 PM – … i personally don’t think that is true, at all. when juniors split their lives between women, partying, etc, and don’t ride and just go out and race cat 3’s and do alright, it doesn’t mean that they can’t make it to the next level. if they were to apply themselves to the bike, and actually train efficiently and productively, only then can they find their true skill and potential. so shut up, you nameless, disgruntled old man.
9:03:00 AM – that’s your opinion. we’ll see about that this year buddy!
Too bad some of Craig Cook’s class didn’t rub off on you.
is the exercise intensity at which lactic acid starts to accumulate in the blood stream. This happens when it is produced faster than it can be removed (metabolized). This point is sometimes referred to as the anaerobic threshold (AT), or the onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA). When exercising below the LT intensity any lactate produced by the muscles is removed by the body without it building up. The lactate threshold is a useful measure for deciding exercise intensity for training and racing in endurance sports (e.g. distance running, cycling, rowing, swimming and cross country skiing), and can be increased greatly with training.
LT is the intensity level at which your body cannot remove lactic acid from your muscles and it builds up, and burns, and you lose power, and then you crack. Maximum for top level atheletes is 5 minutes above LT before they crack. LT generally is the point at which you go anaerobic. THAT IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT!
I know what LT stands for. I’d just like you to explain to me and everyone just what lactate threshold is. And why it’s so important?
joe theismann is posting anonymously now?
Yeah, I can only stand Lawrence Taylor for about 5 minutes, then I crack.
Lawrence Taylor
Lactate threshold? Are you serious?
explain to us what LT is?
No I do not make a living with LT, or anything similar. It’s pretty obvious what LT tests are testing, and what this calcium leaking is showing. LT tests show try to calculate how much your body can handle at any given moment, and how long you can hold it, seeing as most people can’t manage to go above LT for more than 5 minutes, I don’t see that is related to calcium leaking into the muscle over the course of a 3 day test. What they weren’t sure of was if lactic acid has a long term effect on fatigue, and it looks like they are saying it doesn’t.
that calcium leak story where they say the lactic acid and fatigue theory was bunk has to do with long term fatigue. LT testing is COMPLETELY different.
makes a living somehow related to LT…
…and the NY Times is always correct, right?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/12/health/research/12musc.html?ref=health
It’s because we insist on wearing helmets and not using powercranks.
“A popular theory, that muscles become tired because they release lactic acid, was discredited not long ago.”
IT WAS?? Why are we still doing LT tests? What am I missing?
I heard that homie. Keep flippin’ the script son. Superman that bike fool. Hooooooooooo
I hate you all.
You did good in college english DHR? Yeah, you did good.
Definitely. And men will never land on the moon.
Many things are impossible until someone does them. Whether you think you can or you can’t, you’re right.
For you dataheads, here’s an abstract of a study that found an inverse correlation between VO2 max and efficiency in professional cyclists. The inference is that worse genes (i.e., a lower VO2 max) can be compensated for by better efficiency. Yes, pro cyclists VO2 max levels are higher than the average population – but you can and will find pros with average and below average VO2 max.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12471319?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVBrief
If you have talent and are a jr, go to college. Unless you have *TALENT* or are independently weathly and then you can ignore all advice on this page and go Europro.
…unless you are as dumb as the Hincapie bros or cant stop talking and writing in ‘hood slang, so might be better off racing bikes for 2 thou a year and have more fun than the alternative of working at McDonalds. Got to have a dumb guy exception to the rule, since from this site there are clearly a few of them around.
Really? Wear?
and I’m not saying someone has to start at 17 to turn pro.
But every rider (or almost every rider) who got to a high pro level was dominating from the start.
This includes top guys in the US. An example is the McCormack brothers. They were slaying cat 4, 3 right away as juniors. McCarthy was winning tons of races. Hincapie. Etc. I think Mike Engleman started late (like 25 or 28) but was winning immediately.
I’m not saying riders can’t take years to go pro. But to be a big money making pro (US or international – making say $40K or more a year) requires exceptional talent that will appear quickly.
I agree with 1:29 about having fun, just saying don’t think of being in the sport for money unless you are stomping from the start. And even then that might not be enough.
I dunno. I could see a guy getting faster in college and racing pro for a few years in early 20s if he trains hard. Doesnt seem a stretch at all to me. 18 is young and early. Im way stronger now vs 18 for sure. Still, the serious talents do tend to know it early – world class talent. A long way though between Hincapie and many domestic pros riding for $2 k stipend a year. Thats whats funny about cycling. My grandma could probably be a ‘pro’ for some third level team if she rode some miles. Not like there is one league of pro cycling.
If you are not dominating Cat3 and 2 races by the age of 17 then you aint got the genes to make the next level. Accept it and race for fun. I dont think a Cat3 at 18 who has been racing for a few years is going to make the pros.
Those are guys who were dominating races from the start. If someone is going to make serious money racing, they’ll know it by results within their first year of racing. They’ll do the cat 4 to cat 2 thing within a few months and keep progressing.
There are guys a level or two below that – maybe some of our current regional juniors are examples – that might possibly make it as a low-level pro racer or top amateur. It would be great if they did and they viewed that effort as a just a good part of their life. But it’s not going to set them up with any real money in the long run. Nothing wrong with that, but they have to be realistic
i hate my trainer
i just hate people
does that mean you hate yourself?
I hate that code validation bullshit you have to fill out. I suggest its removal. “discuss”
I hate gratuitous use of quotation marks…
the kit comment was a joke. I hate people that don’t understand sarcasm.
The ONLY guy around here who had a reason to skip college and become a Pro, and I mean a real Pro, was George Hincapie. He’s paying the bills with that talent…and that talent was very obvious early on. The rest of us can mix business with pleasure and perhaps step up to a “pro” American team after or during school. If you don’t have that obvious talent early on it’s wiser to get a degree to fall back on (unless you come from wealth). Something that will pay the bills, cause in the end when you’re 35 years old bouncing around as a cat 1 or D3 pro that bike and a stipend doesn’t go too far….
Anybody see the new high road kit, in white? Looks circa 1985. 2008 is the year of the ugly kit. discuss.
I hate it when people write “discuss” so annoying. If you write anything interesting people will comment.
Being a good junior cyclist can even help with college admission. It’s not football and there are very few scholarships but excelling at cycling will count and you’ve developed the discipline to excel at other things.
I don’t see cyclists doing double sessions in college really. Unless you’re crazy and feel like doing it, no one holds you to it. which is why, its actually better than most college sports, its on your own schedule.
Its so good to hear solid advice from King and Cook, guys who know what they are talking about. Basically there is nothing to add to those posts. Call it a day. Debt sucks, but 4% loans can be paid off, and a college degree is forever. I see Nick Frey who just got a pro deal while riding for Princeton and see a model of how to do it right.
Any sport takes it’s toll while in college. I was a swimmer. I remember doing double workouts during the season, 5000 yds in the morning, and 8000 later in the day. It was exhausting. I managed to complete college and remain a competitive division II swimmer. Something had to give and unfortunately it was partying. I’ve been making for that ever since.
Anyway, the two pursuits are not mutually exclusive. I suppose had I made it up to Div I and Olympic trials, I might have taken a sabbatical from college.
Gavi, college is pushed on people right after high school because it makes sense for a lot of reasons. You’re young and have the time and generally not a lot of responsibilities outside of learning, ie, wives. Its far harder when you have kids and a full-time job to work around. Also, its far harder to start back up again after taking a break. Not to mention high school prepares you for jack in the real world and if you expect to get a job that actually pays, you’d need a college education, and even more so now a graduate degree for higher end jobs. Now, thats not always the case but it certainly helps open doors that are far harder to open on your own.
So you get your cycling bug out, and you’re 30 with a high school education, and now you gotta spend 4 more years in school to get your shit together.
Or you could just do school and race at the same time. That seems the wisest choice.
I guess 6:14 isn’t so much a dick anymore…..some may say, wise.
I would rather race for UVM, Fort Lewis, Durango etc than be on some zero paying semi-pro team. The A races in college are arguably harder than most Cat1/2 races regionally. You get to have the best of both worlds.
Mr. Bremer does have a great girlfriend.
Unless you’re a competitive Cat/1/2 doing major regional and some NRC races you’re doing 5 hour rides because you want to. You’ll do just as well with 3 hours and if you’re making a stop on your 5 hour ride, it’s not even as good training as 3 hours straight.
and race your bikes for the College team. You can race against some big time talent on the NEast College scene. Driscoll of UVM is just one of many top guys doing both college and racing. I also think that if you race in college you will be more focused than the typical student getting wasted 4 nights a week and sleeping off the weekend. I believe that if I raced in college my grades would have been As vs Bs and the balance would have opened even more doors for me. Finally, do not miss college when you are young. You could meet your best friends, your future wife or husband and you will have some life long memories good and bad.
to the jrs: college is good. i myself dropped out of college to ride my bike and managed to make a life and living out of a combination of being a decent writer and photographer because i was better at those things. but i held out for a long time, subsisted on minimal $$ and prioritized my racing, and spent alot of years as a cat 1 who couldn’t make the leap. i don’t have any regrets and some of the most important stuff in my life came out of the bike world, BUT when i returned to college at age 34 i realized how great college actually is for cycling. this is a big secret, it is not an either or situation. providing you don’t need to work to pay your tuition while in school, which most would not if you are willing to take on some debt or have kind parents. after the initial shock most of college is not hard and gives you plenty of free time to train. you usually have a maximum of 3 to 4 hrs of class 3 or 4 days a week, leaving plenty of time to train. (grad school is another issue, but that’s for later). at most schools class ends at the latest mid-may, you have great collegiate races with real distance starting 2 weeks earlier than the regular season to prep for summer, and the fall semester starts perfectly at the end of august/early sept when you are burned out. most of your colleagues are busy burning themselves out with less productive extraciriculars, so even if you go through four years in that endorphin addled state I call “race brain” you are at the very least on an even keel with your peers.
as far as the debt goes, remember colleg loans are the lowest interest rate you will ever encounter in your life, with lots of grace period and possible emergency forbearance in the paying it back. i strongly feel that it is easier to get into debt (the bad, credit card kind) trying to be a bike racer and organizing your life around a season where you do nothing but race and a season where you do nothing but work. most people i know who have done this (myself included) end up scraping the bottom by the end of the season and paying rent with the C-card.
so my advice: go to school. race. kick both academic and athletic ass.
two role models: Alex Bremer: awesome guy who is doing it all (and has a great girlfriend to boot!)
also my new teammate at Princeton Nick Frey:
http://nfrey.blogspot.com/
Race at the highest college level, get a degree and then maybe land a gig on a domestic pro team. That is what many of the domestic pros did – Guptil, Danielson, Todd and Troy Wells etc etc.
I completely agree with JFT. College opens so many doors that it is very hard to justify not going. And since many are able to race bikes and go to college at the same time, it seems like nobrainer. Additionally, I raced at the University of Colorado and those are my favorite racing memories.
However, I completely understand what these juniors are thinking, I was the same way at their age. I wanted to be a pro bike racer and live the dream. I only went to college because I wasn
You are a talented Cat 3 maybe ready for Cat 2 this year but you are in no position to comment on people’s results. When you are dominating Cat3 races and Cat2 races against the men at the age of 15 then you can talk. You will have a good Cat3/2 career but to talk about going pro is a bit off. I think your time has passed.
connor you’re a cool kid but devin was way better than you are. upgrading to cat 1 is a little harder than upgrading to cat 3. when you get there you can talk about his results.
good luck with your season, and go to college.
Derek Bouchard Hall, who went to the Olympics and raced pro for Mercury in the US and Europe started bike racing while at Princeton, saw he was good at it so postponed “getting a day job” after college (and maybe took a little longer to graduate) and then hit the bike hard. And went to (I think) Harvard Business School after retiring from racing.
Super talented and super smart guy, but I think the “lesson” for young riders should be to try to mix it up as Eugene said. Unless you have some fulltime paying bike racing gig (and even if you do) I think it’s important to get started in college young. Maybe not rush through it, or finish in four years, but get started and get a taste for learning. Try to balance that with racing. If you take a few semesters off to race, cool, but get a feel for school. A lot of very good regional/national racers also do the “school fall semester/less school summer and spring” thing. If you can afford it, that might be a way to go.
That’s what Elmer Fudd did this morning.
Connor, I got a late start on both– I noodled around in college for a while, worked for 10 years, then went back for real when I was 30. And I didn’t start racing seriously until around the same time (near 30).
I think that people have the ability to develop most effectively, both physically and intellectually, at younger ages. And I think some of the growth is permanent, and can’t be accomplished in the same way in later years. Therefore, I think I missed out on some irretrievable growth opportunities, both in sporting and intellectual pursuits.
I think both pursuits are simultaneously attainable, to some degree. But the complete neglect of one or the other early on will, in my belief, have a permanent effect.
wose up?
min $ for Protur team is 40k uro. divide by weekly time training/recuperation/preparatio/travel and it doesnt add up financially. But you do get a great farmers tan, totally looks good at the beach when you dont make the TdF team…Ask journey man Tony Cruz? Mike Sayers?
Are you really giving up that much to ride thru your 20-30’s instead of feeding the man’s view of mortgage, car, insurance, alimony, COLLEGE LOAN, etc. payments? Get a grip on what life you want to lead, whether it be Spec Ops or Peace Corps, get on with it and make the best of it, the worst thing is wasted talent and broken dreams…get busy or go get a late pass!
I think it is entirely possible to go to school and race bikes well. It just takes focus and not wasting time on trivial things that don’t matter: basically cutting the useless crap out of your life. For example, Peter Horn went to Vassar, graduated and now races in Europe. Stu Gillepsie rode for TIAA-Creff while at Harvard and for a couple of years afterwards. Scott Yesefski (spelling?) raced for TIAA-Cref also while at Dartmouth and raced for Nerac while at University of Chicago. That’s all pretty respectable and doable.
I’m basically corroborating what 10:18 is saying.
Devin was kicked off of Sakonnet. At least that’s what I heard.
seems that young people do have more pressure now to get serious.
I wouldn’t base peoples skills on the results posted on USAC, is not terribly accurate. He also basically threw in the towel after he left Sakkonnet. I think he wised up.
i wish i could take a year off, but i don’t think i’d have the will-power to actually go back and learn after that year.
all you guys on here who have had the experience, is it worth it?
Cycling is dum. I do it a lot, so I no.
I raced in Europe for a month mid semester during grad school, with no problems. Its priorities. Tom Danielson, and plenty of other pros raced like crazy and went to college, and are now Pro. You do graduate around 20 or 21, still fairly young.
I do think college is over-rated though, and wish I didn’t go purely for the money it sets you back. Work it Gavi.
My son does about 3 hrs of homework a night- voluntarily. I did that a week. He’s stressed about college still 4 yrs away. I back packed around Europe, SE Asia, Australia, and the South Pacific for a year before college.
that juniors could just have fun, and in the process learn some valuable life lessons along the way. Develop good habits and life-long health through a positive endeavor? Not go pro, and still be succesful?
his scholarship was likely not for cycling, probably academics. no offense or anything, but his results are pretty terrible on the usacycling.org website, so i don’t know if the whole pro thing would’ve worked out anyway.
HOWEVER, he is clearly a REAL smart individual, because he went to stanford, and so i’m glad that he has options. he is a good example of people who race their bikes, who are pretty good, but do if for fun and not so much to be pro. it strikes a good balance within the sport.
(6:14) x (anything) = zero.
devin flaherty got a cycling scholarship (i believe) to Stanford, was a top collegiate racer & raced pro races in europe, got a great education and worked last summer for a top NYC architecture firm. chose not to do the full on pro thing…but it definitely opened some doors for him.
Gavi’s comment, “I am trying my hardest to make something of myself in cycling.”
= 6:14 is a dick.
I know I will also make an opportunity later in life to go to school after my cycling addiction wears off and we are in a better financial situation. I just don’t understand why college needs to be pushed on right after you finish high school. I didn’t know what I wanted to learn, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. But I have grown up quickly now and see the things that are important to me and I feel I am only now seeing what I would want to learn in school and what I can succeed in. So for me this time off of school has been way more productive than the semester I did spend at Rutgers, because of my lack of motivation since it was forced on me. When I return, and I will return one day, I will have a lot more motivation.
Ciao from Belize. The Tour starts in two days. I would never be here if I was in school, and I am trying my hardest to make something of myself in cycling.
And I am working very hard so that I can help pay for my wife to go to school. I wish I could afford to be there with her, but bills need to be paid.
Just so you know cycling is not the reason I am not in school.
i live my life remembering the fact that there is no glory in the cubicle (as said on this post somewhere..), and that’s why i’m going to keep riding my bike (through college) until i reach tha pros.
if the money isn’t cutting it after a year or two, then perhaps i’ll fall back on a college education. we shall see!
and as for the junior burnout/time management deal, i think you can definitely find that in every sport. some care a lot, some care little, but they all just want to ride in the end – just like kids want to play basketball, soccer, swimming, whatever. just remember that it’s a super niche sport like… skiing, or badminton, or.. bowling? so of course the numbers will be limited.
Gavi didn’t go to college, his development hasn’t exactly skyrocketed in the following years.
Gavi skipped college to race? uh oh.
I think you made exactly my point. Keep your eyes open. Go to college and race. Backup plan built in.
If a junior likes to ride and has real talent, then he should try to go pro if he wants to. But he should do so with his eyes open and have a backup plan. He should also be able to win real races clean before taking any juice.
right, you tell a kid to keep his eyes open and be realistic and have a backup plan. see how that works out. theres no reason you can’t go to college and race, its actually a pretty good schedule for training, plus summers off, and you can race NCAA.
I think you’re forgetting some fairly large elite teams there my friend…..
Heres how your projections play out.
Mengoni, non are fit in the spring, get nada.
Gotham, right….
Foundation, tear each other apart. Tgor kills someone.
United, got Rickey, will do no work, and miss out on all the breaks, and place in best of the rest.
as stated below, Morras is lookin like a no-show, chump sys has nada as far as a spring series leader.
What about Jersey or CT teams? I think Ideal Tile typically puts a good show on in the spring. or Sommerville sports for that matter….
except their winner, isn’t racing. drops them to 0% I’m afraid.
This is fun, but I gotta hop. My Standard Poodle has a grooming appointment.
your ladies will luv ur new power crank enlargement!
gs mengo have 9% of winnig
gs goth 11 % of winnig
united have 15% of winnig
fondation 20% of winnig
champion sys 45% of winnig because they was the last spring series winner
gs mengo have 9% of winnig
gs goth 11 % of winnig
united have 15% of winnig
fondation 20% of winnig
champion sys 45% of winnig because they was the last spring series winner
So there is no middle ground between the polo grounds and a crappy bike messanger service? Interesting.
43rd street has coffee and a doughnut.
All the guts and determination in the world + $0.25 wont even buy you a cup of coffee.
he used to be irresponsible before he lost his hair and purchased insurance.. a real maverick
Moras had had plica surgery done on both knees and they were still bothering him from what I was told.
so far in this thread. If you aspire to a 3000 foot apartment overlooking central park and a wife and kids into dog shows and show jumping then maybe rethink the cycling thing and go to Harvard and suck up and work as hard as you can but hopefully you wish to just ride your bike and in that case I think you’re okay and should do just that.
or any age that has the guts, determination, and some talent should absolutely go for it…just like Casey, keep your feet on the ground and reach for the stars! The greatest risk is not to take one! You can actually travel the world and race your bike, meet people that never heard of Walmart!
Amazing! Just stay away from cheaters, dopers, mafia, UCI, ASO, USCF, and the same pitfalls that are everywhere and all the time no matter what walk of life you choose!
Pro or No Pro, GO FOR IT! Don’t look back, there is no glory in a cubicle!
Moras had his knee injury recur, which scared him off the bike completely.
What happened to his knee?
I would bomb Iraq because of fear stemming from prudent thinking? Whatever dude. You dont know me.
“Follow your dreams kid; or go to scholl and end up like CM”
Haha. Heaven forbid! Anything but that.
just like the argument my last comment was designed not to make sense..or maybe it did make sense… one more thing.. whatever happened to Miguel Moras after last spring, after winning the spring series and being DQ’d from Bear Mtn race he dropped off face of the NYC Bike Racing Planet..
all kids should learn to skateboard..that way they have something to fall back on when they learn that bike racing needs people to graduate from college and make money and donate to USA Cycling to bring up more juniors so they can learn to skateboard when the learn that cycling needs more people to go to college..or maybe they should try to qualify for the US Ski Team, that might be easier…
bomb Iraq. All that ‘prudent’ thinking is just fear. Well what if this and what if that.
Follow your dreams kid; or go to scholl and end up like CM
chris m is pissed because schmalz used his pic for this thread?
Ah the pity youth is wasted on the young
yeah – i want to know chris m’s employer so i can put a watch on its stock
Does anyone still read Chris M’s posts?
I don’t.
I dont seek to explain current JR Devel programs. I have no connection to them myself, but agree with you in principal.
Funny how such diff perspectives come up on this board. The thought that you should just ‘do what you like’, and the other thought that ‘education doesnt matter because we will all eventually die’ are both valid life philosophies. I cant argue with them, but dont agree with them for sure.
I believe young people need good advice from adults, not necessarily to make them all want to be doctors or lawyers, but to make them aware of the full range of possibilities (and lack of restraints), and of the importance of making the right choices as teens to make whatever they choose happen. Nothing wrong with being a cyclist, but they should be aware of what they might be giving up in the process so they dont wake up 10 years later and wonder what they were thinking when they can’t open certain other doors at that point. I think its important to be supportive as a parent etc, but also important to be a guide and advisor.
I for one certainly don’t glorify my own career choice, but I gotta say Id rather be me than Mr. 37 yr old ex pro rider today (professionally, not personally) for a variety of reasons.
So is 1:24 Jr, lining up for races with dear old dad? Do you know many people who got into this sport because of their parents?
I am talking about growing the sport, not keeping it within the same group. Many Jrs don’t have a parent who race, Just ask many of the current CRCA Jrs. When I was a Jr, many years ago, I didn’t have a parent who raced or even rode regularly, so trying to get into the sport was not easy.
We have a unique opportunity here in NYC since there are so many races that a Jr living in the city can attend without requiring a car to attend. Which means Jrs don’t have to beg their parents to drive them to races, or wait to race until they have a driver’s licence. Unfortuantly we only see a tiny handful of Jrs
Do watcha like. Who cares what anybody else thinks…
If you’re a junior maybe you have mom or dad or someone, and you don’t need a program to be a 5,4 or 3. After that maybe you need one.
Well, if it makes people feel better: I turn pro tomorrow. I’ll make sure to tell the juniors: you can do it…
how your life turns out or how big an education or career you have. We all make a living one way or another and after 70 or 80 years you are going to die. Let the juniors try out the pro thing if they want. Success is all relative anyway. There’s nothing to lose is there? Go for it man. If you stop enjoying it, stop doing it and do something different.
So if cycling is supposed to be a hobby for most, why are Jr programs almost entirely focused on the 1-2% that can go pro?
Why are we not focusing resources our sport to get kids out riding and understanding competition, the cream will rise to the top, but more kids will get an opportunity to try the sport, and maybe get to share our unhealthy lifestyle.
Office Space was on last night. CLASSIC.
J King is the kind of guy we should be hearing from in this thread. I dont know him really, but gather he did go to college and maybe raced in Europe for a season or two before presumably applying his education to another career with long term opportunity. This is what I would consider the “right” way to go about it, in general, for most riders.
drop the wives
my cousin recently explained to me she did not want to go to a “bar school.” she was more interested in schools where the drinking is accessible to under agers – frat houses and dorms.
tip: check those college guides and stay away from “bar schools”
I’m sure that guy was once a promising Junior.
i think jaoa, jeff king, and miguel morras all have decent careers after not “making it” in cycling.
i havent’t “gone at it 6 nights a week in season” since i was about 20.
and as an aside, we dont need more people going to college. we got enough people going to college. so many people going to college, a bunch of yahoos then have to go to “business school” in their mid 20s b/c college isn’t selective enough. g-ddamn collection of 30yo children. send more folks to practical schools where they learn skills. the only thing colleges turn out consistenly are drunks.
it’s nice to see other write about the “see you in 5 hours–oh, and i’ll need a meal and 2 hour nap when i get back” syndrome. it never crossed my mind that when i say that to my wife many others are saying it to theirs as well.
it’s nice to see other write about the “see you in 5 hours–oh, and i’ll need a meal and 2 hour nap when i get back” syndrome. it never crossed my mind that when i say that to my wife many others are saying it to theirs as well.
when you have a relationship and/or kids, you come back from a race or hard training and instead of resting you are on your feet making breakfast for the kids or working on your house or whatever…then very sore monday morning.
When you turn to your spouse and say “honey, Im off to ride – see you in 5 hours, and oh, Ill need a meal and nap when I get back, but dont despair, we still have the evening together!” it kinda sinks in that this sport isnt like many others. Maybe golf, but they dont need the rest, and generally dont go at it 6 nights a week in season.
Unlike other sports juniors in cycling are thrown into races with 30 and 40 year olds. This makes it a very different social experience.
Last post is interesting. Look at the diffs between cycling and mainstream pro sports – waaay fewer opportunities, much much lower pay (lets just say no pay vs great pay to be clear), fewer coaching or professional opps post racing, little name recognition as cyclist. Basically nothing on the other end of a cycling ‘career’ unless you are Lance, or a big name in Europe maybe. The fact of cycling as a ‘niche’ sport makes the consideration of a US junior going into a program an important one. Yes, like surfing or other like sports, its basically a dead end. I say better to balance goals in life early and not lose sight of the big picture if a junior wants to be a pro – in other words, go ahead – enjoy – compete like crazy – but ALSO have a real backup in the form of education. Go to college – dont skip to ride a bike. That would be a big mistake, in my view.
Oh, the other thing I keep coming back to about cycling is the sheer hours and level of time dedication to the sport far exceeds most others – even mainstream ones. What college basketball star spends 5 hours practicing, and then needs to nap for 2 hours just to continue functioning in the evening? How many baseball players spend 7 hours a day throwing a ball on a regular schedule? This MATTERS when you think about relative use of time, esp for a college student.
My opinion: Cycling is best treated as a hobby for all but the most obvious likely talents. Lance saw exceptional talent even as a teen, and was clearly justified in exploring his limits as a result. Few others are in this category. Look at ‘big name pros’ from the US pelaton as recent as this decade, now struggling just to find low pay jobs as coaches and managers on the back end of careers at the elite level, but without any national name recognition – Andreu and whats-his-name. What are ANY of the US Postal guys from the 1990s doing now???
I’ve heard baseball players in France don’t even get paid.
what is a
Passion and dedication to the point of taking a vow of poverty isn’t exclusive to cycling. Do you know any dancers, journeymen pro surfers, soccer players? I believe a non starting red bull player makes what, 35K. Or even worse, how about musicians?
I think we established that trying to go pro in other sports works its way through collegiate sports, thus getting a college education, where cycling generally doesn’t.
Much of talk on this site of cycling as “selfish” has more to do with using the sport as a social outlet apart from “real life.” Is it safe to bring kids into “Schmalzland” or will bringing kids in help us enjoy cycling as sport less “selfishly”.
High Level training and racing eats up juniors, but so does any junior level sport. There are enough Americans that made it through the whole process and now race in Europe and make a good living. But thats one in a million shot. Its really no different that trying to become a professional athlete in any sport.
If you’re that good, you’re that good and you’ll make it, but to say its all a waste and not bother is a horrible thing to say, as 98% of all euro pros went through a junior program, and didn’t come into the sport late in life. Its the only way to get enough miles and racing in to have a shot by the time your 19 or 20.
So what if you have to quit at 35, you’ve been doing it for half your life, you’d prly want a change of pace anyways. Most guys are excited to join the real world after a long career as a pro. Guys that say its unfortunate you have to quit at 35, prly is over 35 and washed up, and probably just jealous.
grand unification comment
Juniors, please don’t listen to these naysayers. Go for it if you want it. If you can’t make it, you’ll know soon enough. You’re not wasting your life to try, as these bitter losers suggest.
As long as juniors are required to wear helmets at all times, I don’t care what we do for them.
good points by DHR & Toni, the pro pressure might be because there are so few juniors in it in the first place. The star-track program seems to have made that good distinction where kids build their bodies and character without undue pressure. I’m sure crca is leaning in that direction too, juniors can go as far as they push themselves.
I think we should seperate Jr development for pro racing vs, Jrs racing for clubs. I think asking most kids to make the sacrifices to try to go pro is extreme not only for cycling but for all sports. Why can’t cycling come up with a Jrs program that works for both the kids who have the drive and desire to go pro, and the kids who want to ride and race because it is fun.
As a Jr I was disappointed that all the focus was on identifing talent to go pro, when I never wanted to be a pro cyclist. Not every high school basketball player goes onto the pros, yet there is the emphasis on training and learning that the sport provides to all those kids. Why can’t cycling figure that out.
First Loser!!!
I meant what I wrote on the last page. However, some people had good comments that I hadn’t really thought about and they made me think a bit more. I understand their points and they were good points. However, I still think that jr. cycling tends to ask too much of kids and they end up throwing away a lot of opportunities that would lead to a more stable life.
Cycling isn’t very good on fallback plans. Kids tend to risk everything for a chance at “their dream”. The problem is, even if they achieve the dream, they are left with a crappy job: low pay, no future, no benefits, and you have to quit at 35 bc you are too old. It just makes me shake my head when I hear people say that we need to get more kids into bike racing. The best ones always lose the most.